Patriot lock warning?

[Buzpilot]

I tried the Su-25T yesterday, and remembered the strange RWS reaction russian AI have on Patriot Radars. And made a mission with patriots.

I started near Patriot sensor range, and flew 3-4000feet altitude toward the Patriot, near launch radius I got a lock tone, but Patriot radars don't track like older systems, so this is strange.

 

Also strange, i could get very close to Patriot system before it launced a missile.

 

Edit; I did this yesterday, and my memory isn't perfect, was probably 2-2500feet

Edited June 5, 2012 by Buzpilot

[159th_Viper]

I'll have a looksee.

[Nate--IRL--]

Note Patriots have long warm up time IIRC - set their active state to red in the ME for a quicker response time.

 

Nate

[Buzpilot]

Note Patriots have long warm up time IIRC - set their active state to red in the ME for a quicker response time.

 

Nate

 

 

I did a coldstart from parking, so I didn't think of that one, but I'll check again to see how long it took.

One minor detail, i used Eng Oper, L/R (warthog throttle) to start engines, but in debrief i got a list of engine start/ stop messages, is it possible to fix that, or should i use 2 different switches?

 

Edit; I got locked very early after takeoff, went above 1000m, but could loose it again below 300m, and could climb back up to 6-700m without getting locked again, towards radar.

Edit 2; Disregard, seems quite possible there was a hill making a radar shadow towards my pos.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Buzpilot

[Nate--IRL--]

I did a coldstart from parking, so I didn't think of that one, but I'll check again to see how long it took.

One minor detail, i used Eng Oper, L/R (warthog throttle) to start engines, but in debrief i got a list of engine start/ stop messages, is it possible to fix that, or should i use 2 different switches?

 

That is a bug with the debrief - annoying isn't it? It is on the of a million annoying things to be fixed though :)

 

Nate

[159th_Viper]

Just checked with internal build: Got tracked approx 90km from radar, with launch at 40km. Sounds about right I would have thought.

[Buzpilot]

Just checked with internal build: Got tracked approx 90km from radar, with launch at 40km. Sounds about right I would have thought.

 

So the lock tone is correct behaviour?

What altitude did you get launch?

[159th_Viper]

So the lock tone is correct behaviour?

What altitude did you get launch?

 

What do you mean by lock tone? The steady audible warning tone, which then transitions into the intermittent launch tone with the flashing Beryoza lamp? If so, then yeah, that is normal.

 

Launch at about 6000ft.

[159th_Viper]

Another quick test from 15000ft sees the radar track from 130km, with launch at 45km. Keep in mind that the system now launches with you well within the NEZ (No-Escape zone). Have not tested the countermeasures (chaff), but manoeuvring (3/9 line etc etc) does not have the effect it had as in FC2 days - It's definitely more of a handful now.

[Buzpilot]

What do you mean by lock tone? The steady audible warning tone, which then transitions into the intermittent launch tone with the flashing Beryoza lamp? If so, then yeah, that is normal.

 

Launch at about 6000ft.

 

I could be totally wrong, but i know the Patriot radar don't have a rotating disc, and the search tone in Su-25T have pulses about 1sec, that makes me think it's rotating, and like F-15 tracking for Amraams, you should not get a steady lock/tracking tone at all.

 

From 440m I could get to less than 25km before launch.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Buzpilot

[159th_Viper]

I could be totally wrong, but i know the Patriot radar don't have a rotating disc, and the search tone in Su-25T have pulses about 1sec, that makes me think it's rotating, and like F-15 tracking for Amraams, you should not get a steady lock/tracking tone at all.....

 

The Beryoza has three types of tones:

 

1 - Low frequency intermittent tone (beep..........beep...........beep) for acquisition radar systems (AWACS, EWR etc etc).

 

2 - High frequecy steady tone (beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep) for tracking/lock mode. Most SAM systems transition to this mode at the outset as you are well within range when the Beryoza lights up, as with the Patriot site.

 

3 - High pitch intermittent tone (beep..beep..beep..beep..beep..beep..beep..beep) for when launch is detected.

 

 

From 440m I could get to less than 25km before launch.

 

**Could be waaay off base here, but does that not have to do also with the curvature of the earth? Don't know enough to give a definitive answer there, but I'll look further and see what I can find out if I can replicate it in the testers' build.**

 

 

 

**Edit: Disregard the above - definitely a bug at low altitude. I did not even get a launch. I'll look further and report.

 

Thanx :)

Edited June 5, 2012 by 159th_Viper

[Buzpilot]

The Beryoza has three types of tones:

 

1 - Low frequency intermittent tone (beep..........beep...........beep) for acquisition radar systems (AWACS, EWR etc etc).

 

I'm was asuming the Beryoza is a analogue system, and the speed of beeps should correspond to the rotating speed of radar disc. Thx for letting me know.

[Nate--IRL--]

There is also another bug at play where the RWR will leave a ghost indication after tracking is lost.

 

It is quite possible to be below the Line of sight of the patriot but still get a spike on the RWR due to this bug.

 

When the RWR is emitting no sound - the patriot can't see you - regardless what the RWR shows.

 

Nate

[Buzpilot]

After reading some more, I think the Beroyza in DCS:World is different from reality.

If the hostile radar switches to tracking (STT) the red circle will flash and a continuous high pitched audio tone will sound.

When a SAM launch is detected a continuous variable pitch sound will be given.

The Beryoza is claimed to be capable of detecting enemy airborne radars at 120% of the distance within which the enemy fighter can launch a missile.

Radars operating in TWS mode cannot be distinguished from search mode.

http://aerospace.boopidoo.com/philez/Su-15TM%20PICTURES%20&%20DOCS/Overscan's%20guide%20to%20Russian%20Military%20Avionics.htm

 

A Patriot radar use TWS, so the continuous sound of Lock/track should only be after launch, when Patriot radar lights up the target for the semi active missiles.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Buzpilot

[GGTharos]

Patriot does not use TWS. It uses SWT and with the right hardware yes, you can pick up the lock depending on the exact details of the tracking mode used.

[Buzpilot]

Patriot does not use TWS. It uses SWT and with the right hardware yes, you can pick up the lock depending on the exact details of the tracking mode used.

 

TWS and SWT is practical not that different, if you consider the signal emitting .

'the right hardware' yes, but we are talking about the Beroyza here.

[GGTharos]

There's not reason for the Beryoza to not have the right hardware.

 

And yes, actually, TWS and SWT is very, very different.

 

The point here is that definitive statements going one way or another cannot be made by us. As for guesses ... I'd lean towards 'yes' rather than 'no'. The Russians had the same radar type to base their RWR hardware off of anyway (The SA-10 operates on the same principles).

 

TWS and SWT is practical not that different, if you consider the signal emitting .

'the right hardware' yes, but we are talking about the Beroyza here.

[Buzpilot]

There's not reason for the Beryoza to not have the right hardware.

 

And yes, actually, TWS and SWT is very, very different.

 

The point here is that definitive statements going one way or another cannot be made by us. As for guesses ... I'd lean towards 'yes' rather than 'no'. The Russians had the same radar type to base their RWR hardware off of anyway (The SA-10 operates on the same principles).

 

 

I know they are very different, one scan by moving antenna fysicly, the other use electronics only.

TWS - Track While Scan

SWT - Search While Track

But it still use semi active missiles, so why should Patriot radars do something stupid and reveal a lock before it need to?

( I read about a F-16 vs Patriot accident, the F-16 got locked, used a HARM, and destroyed the launcher, indicating the missile itself was in range to lock. )

Edited June 10, 2012 by Buzpilot

[GGTharos]

But it still use semi active missiles, so why should Patriot radars do something stupid and reveal a lock before it need to?

 

Because it wants to classify the track? Any number of reasons. It doesn't have to make sense to you, it just has to be the way it's done, if you get my meaning. There are reasons for doing things which we don't know.

 

( I read about a F-16 vs Patriot accident, the F-16 got locked, used a HARM, and destroyed the launcher, indicating the missile itself was in range to lock. )

 

Actually it destroyed the radar.

[Buzpilot]

 

Actually it destroyed the radar.

 

'No one was injured but the Patriot Missile Battery was damaged'

I see ,after reading the article itself, it says the radar.:music_whistling:

[GGTharos]

Yeah, I think 'missile battery' in general means the entire SAM system, not a launcher.

[Buzpilot]

(The SA-10 operates on the same principles).

 

 

I would say it operates very very different, compared to SA-10 in DCS:World, the Patriot system acts like a conventional system.

Or maybe the Georgian Su25T don't have 'the right hardware' ?

Su25T vs SA-10.trk

[GGTharos]

They operate on the same principles, and that's that. As for what's in the game, there's intent, and there's game bugs (things operating counter to intended operation).

[Buzpilot]

I noticed something strange about the SA-10 btw, after I avoided the second launch and Beryoza silenced, the missiles still tracked me. Not accurate, but enough to do dammage.

 

Speed edited track;

Su25T vs SA-10.trk

Edited June 10, 2012 by Buzpilot

[159th_Viper]

I noticed something strange about the SA-10 btw, after I avoided the second launch and Beryoza silenced, the missiles still tracked me. Not accurate, but enough to do dammage.

 

Have not watched the track due to replay issues, but just be aware that the Beryoza has limited coverage and, dependant on the attitude of your plane, will lose the SAM signal - does not however mean that the missile has lost you - just means that your Beryoza is blind.