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Seeking best connection method for optimal multi-monitor-performance


Weltensegler
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Hello Gentlemen,

 

I have not a lot time for trial and error at the moment so I hope you can save me some time with your knowledge.

 

My cockpit got most of his screens and yesterday I finally received my gtx680 4GB FTW.

Same as my gtx580sc it is a single GPU to have a better use of the video memory.

 

My questions concerning video memory management and fps are now:

 

screensetup02.jpg

 

A: As long as I use only two monitors for Helios, shouldn't it be preferable regarding video memory to use the gtx680 only for 3 monitors? ...the main screens?

I think I remember an old thread on a SC-simulation forum that you would have better frame rates when one mainscreen and Helios is powered by one card (would be layout 2 in the picture) but I don't remember the exact context and it could have been a special case where someone had a strong and a weak card each with 2 monitor connections.

 

B: Do I really have to tell DCS the whole freakin' width of all those screens?

Lets say I export only DCS displays to the first Helios screen couldn't I skip the last 23" and the usb screen in the overall width in DCS options?

Or doesn't that make any performance difference at all if DCS is not rendering anything on those anyways?

 

I certainly hope PeterP and Gadroc have a minute for my thread as well :)

 

Thank you in advance guys!

4790K@4,6Ghz | EVGA Z97 Classified | 32GB @ 2400Mhz | Titan X hydro copper| SSD 850 PRO

____________________________________

Moments in DCS:

--> https://www.youtube.com/user/weltensegLA

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WELD's cockpit: --> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=92274

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I had now a brief 30sec look and I would say you will have to use the second variant .

The connection method where most of the monitors are directly connected to the back-buffer of your V-Ram/GPU that renders all this stuff. (but I really have to go to bed now:P)

 

- so you can bypass to copy as much data as possible via the pci-bus to relieve your CPU form extra workload.

also keep in mind : if you only want to have the UHF repeater of DCS shown on second Helios monitor - you still need to expand the render-area of DCS beyond your "main-screens"

 

Expect some questions from me tomorrow about what exact contend you want to show on them and how your profiles for this are ready - because there are many things to have keep an eye on to get the smallest possible render-surface and maintain performance...

 

In the meantime browse this thread: Desperately seeking fps for BS2 - starting at post #17

 

and have a lock at SoftTH. - your system asks for it.

 

and have also a look at this to know what bugs/flaws you may face A Plea for View-Export/Multi-head/TH Users. -(but I think you are aware of this)


Edited by PeterP

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I was afraid of that :)

I will study your links and come back with more information hopefully even before you wake up again but I'm still at work for another 5h.

Assuming you are 9h ahead that should still leave me enough time, hehe

4790K@4,6Ghz | EVGA Z97 Classified | 32GB @ 2400Mhz | Titan X hydro copper| SSD 850 PRO

____________________________________

Moments in DCS:

--> https://www.youtube.com/user/weltensegLA

-->

 

WELD's cockpit: --> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=92274

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I was afraid of that smile.gif

I will study your links and come back with more information hopefully even before you wake up again but I'm still at work for another 5h.

Assuming you are 9h ahead that should still leave me enough time, hehe

:D;)

quote from another Talk-On ....

there is no hurry and you don't waste my time! smile.gif

 

- it's just simple like this: I'm subscribed to this thread and I just get a note via iPhone every time someone answers - ....and only I decide when I response/answer.wink.gif

 

You do it for you - not for me.

it applies to you the same ... all good things need time.

And most important for me is that you not "only" apply my advises - YOU should comprehend and enjoy everything in the end.

 

 

BTW ( to keep you more pressing :D): why you dont try to use your a big touch-screen like this? -

have a look at this and the postings that follows : http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1486408#post1486408


Edited by PeterP

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Oh I know... I am in no rush

I just thought its more polite to not ask for help and than let somebody wait too long for the required information.

But you just took that off me :)

I certainly didn't mean to rush YOU.

 

PS.: hope your phone is on silent then by bow :D


Edited by Weltensegler

4790K@4,6Ghz | EVGA Z97 Classified | 32GB @ 2400Mhz | Titan X hydro copper| SSD 850 PRO

____________________________________

Moments in DCS:

--> https://www.youtube.com/user/weltensegLA

-->

 

WELD's cockpit: --> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=92274

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Before I change everything to Layout2 as you recommended (or try an softTH approach) I would like to know how it runs in the current Layout1 to have a comparison later (without the USB screen for now(thats for the ICP when the DCSF18 gets released)).

 

screensetup3.jpg

 

So I changed DCSA10C option's resolution to 9600x1200

and added the left and right screens to the monitor lua as well as moved MFDs and it seemed as if DCS can't get over my resolution...: xcuse me, wHATT??? ->crash

 

 

 

_ = function(p) return p; end;

name = _('HoRiZoNtAl');

Description = '3x55"Center + 1x24"touch + 1x23"'

Viewports =

{

Left =

{

x = 0;

y = 0;

width = screen.width / 5;

height = 1200-120;

viewDx = -1;

viewDy = 0;

aspect = 1.77777777777777778;

},

 

 

 

Center =

{

x = screen.width / 5;

y = 0;

width = screen.width / 5;

height = 1200-120;

viewDx = 0;

viewDy = 0;

aspect = 1.77777777777777778;

},

 

 

 

Right =

{

x = screen.width * 2 / 5;

y = 0;

width = screen.width / 5;

height = 1200-120;

viewDx = 1;

viewDy = 0;

aspect = 1.77777777777777778;

}

}

 

LEFT_MFCD =

{

x = 5807;

y = 54;

width = 420;

height = 420;

}

 

RIGHT_MFCD =

{

x = 7213;

y = 54;

width = 420;

height = 420;

}

 

CMSC_SCREEN =

{

x = 6622;

y = 55;

width = 220;

height = 42;

}

 

RWR_SCREEN =

{

x = 6370;

y = 90;

width = 175;

height = 175;

}

 

 

 

So I tried loading the old monitor lua from my setup before with two 55" screens less and a resolution of 5760x1200 (while display 2 was main display) just to see what happens.

 

 

name = _('HORIZONTAL_SAMSUNG-HD+24"Touch_wip');

Description = '55"Center gtx580 + 1x24"touch + 1x23"touch'

Viewports =

{

Center =

{

x = 0;

y = 0;

width = 1920;

height = 1080;

viewDx = 0;

viewDy = 0;

aspect = 1.77777777777777778;

}

}

 

LEFT_MFCD =

{

x = 1967;

y = 54;

width = 420;

height = 420;

}

 

RIGHT_MFCD =

{

x = 3373;

y = 54;

width = 420;

height = 420;

}

 

CMSC_SCREEN =

{

x = 2782;

y = 55;

width = 220;

height = 42;

}

 

RWR_SCREEN =

{

x = 2530;

y = 90;

width = 175;

height = 175;

}

UIMainView = Viewports.Center

 

 

 

And it worked, no crash but still not like I expected it.

The main screen was on display 3 and exports on 5 though the monitor lua said x=0 and y=0 which didn't make me expect to have the center view on display 3!

I rather expected something distorted with a resolution of 5760x1200 in the DCS a10 options.

When doing the same but having display 1. set to main display the whole show moves one screen to the right. SAme result like diplay1 as main display I get when display 3 is main display so it is not consistent.

 

I thought well lets try the old lua with a 9600x1200 resolution... should gimme something...but crashes.

 

Its not my first multi-monitor setup though here are some new challenges included with 5 screens...maybe I am just too tired.

Its almost 2am and I have to work in a few hours so

I will keep error searching tomorrow.

 

Hopefully the issue is so clear that I understand it tomorrow.

 

 

EDIT: I did one more test:

old lua for 3screens and in the options I put in the resolution for 4 screens total width: 7680x1200

It didn't crash in this case!

 

4screenwidthON5.jpg

 

As soon as I go up to the real resolution of 9600x1200 it just craches!

Is that just too much for DCS?

 

Now I have to sleep,

thanks in advance for ideas!


Edited by Weltensegler

4790K@4,6Ghz | EVGA Z97 Classified | 32GB @ 2400Mhz | Titan X hydro copper| SSD 850 PRO

____________________________________

Moments in DCS:

--> https://www.youtube.com/user/weltensegLA

-->

 

WELD's cockpit: --> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=92274

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First : Your 'HoRiZoNtAl'.lua looks legit. - so there must be a PEBKAC somewhere ;)

(but I really would like to advise you to use a "Gui" viewport - later more)

 

 

I even made a test (as good as my hardware allows it) that includes all the characteristics you have in your set-up.

Just to see how it works/behaves on my system.

 

I did set-up 4 monitors like this:

test.jpg

 

 

the first three are directly attached to my HD 6870 and the last is on a HD 4850.

 

So you can somewhat compare it with yours when talking about how to set it up.

 

 

This is the "test"lua I used:

 

 

_ = function(p) return p; end;

name = _('test');

Description = 'test on three 1024x768 and one 1024x1280'

Viewports =

{

Left =

{

x = 0;

y = 0;

width = screen.width / 4;

height = 1024-256;

viewDx = -1;

viewDy = 0;

aspect = 1.333333333;

},

 

 

 

Center =

{

x = screen.width / 4;

y = 0;

width = screen.width / 4;

height = 1024-256;

viewDx = 0;

viewDy = 0;

aspect = 1.333333333

},

 

 

 

Right =

{

x = screen.width * 2 / 4;

y = 0;

width = screen.width / 4;

height = 1024-256;

viewDx = 1;

viewDy = 0;

aspect = 1.333333333;

}

}

 

LEFT_MFCD =

{

x = screen.width * 3 / 4;

y = 0;

width = 420;

height = 420;

}

 

RIGHT_MFCD =

{

x = screen.width * 7 / 8;

y = 0;

width = 420;

height = 420;

}

 

CMSC_SCREEN =

{

x = screen.width * 3 / 4;

y = screen.height / 2;

width = 220;

height = 42;

}

 

RWR_SCREEN =

{

x = screen.width * 7 / 8;

y = screen.height / 2;

width = 175;

height = 175;

}

 

GUI=

 

{

x = screen.width / 4;

y = 0;

width = screen.width / 4;

height = 1024-256;

}

 

UIMainView = GUI

 

 

and this is how it looked:

 

ingame-test.jpg

 

 

So I don't see why this is failing for you windowed.

 

[Edit:

Yes! - I totally forgot about this (as it happens so rarely...)

DirectX9 is restricted to a to total of 8192 x 8192 - so we have to get everything somehow inside this square!! (Blame Microsoft for this!wink.gif) - a width of 9600 isn't legit for a DX9 application!!

:Edit]

 

Here are some tips to get some clearance why it failed for you:

 

 

1.

 

Maybe start with only one view-port that covers 5760x1080 instead of three view-ports each 1920x1080.

Also turn down all graphic setting for debugging - when a setting works you can always higher them again!

 

Because> running 3 view-ports can be a very big resource vampire!

And i really don't think that this is really pleasing on a Planar TH-setting.

 

Some info from me about this:

"3 monitor" camera angles adjustment

 

When you use a "planar" TH-Setup , just stick with the 1 Screen option.

 

 

 

about 2.

 

I'm short at time...

 

so please have a read here

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=77955 and here

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.ph...4#post1372974-

-should explain a lot.

 

But in short: Rendering 3 view-ports takes almost 3times the same load on your card as only rendering only one, and use a lot of V-Ram.

The only things that your card can re-use are the textures, but almost all other things have to be rendered again.

And there is up to now no way to streamline this.

But it should anyway be used only in a setup with projection with a squared environment.

It is IHMO not meant to be used on a TH-Setup (see examples in the links).

the biggest hit is rendering the cockpit - switch to HUD-only view (ALT+F1) to see how smooth everything is...

 

BTW - while we are on it, and you use a 3-monitor setup: Fix for misplaced/stretched MP and Mission Gui - also for BS

2.

Make sure the screens are placed exactly like your need them for your Monitorsetup.lua in the windows properties.

 

3. add the needed resolution(s) inside the optionsdata.lua of DCS - so you can quickly switch between test-setting via the drop down-list and you rule-out to make some typos/failures while doing it every-time manually and /or by having to handle different options.lua's

 

Here is a "how to": Fix: adding a custom resolution to in-game options.

 

4.

Double-check everything. - and make yourself notes what you already tried to prevent to run in circles.

;) very helpful when you are tired....

5.

Read this guide again. When you are not tired or in a rush :)

Dummies Guide for the “MonitorSetup.lua“ - ED Forums

 

6.

Add a "Gui" viewport to you MonitorSetup.lua

 

like this:

GUI=

 

{

x = screen.width / 5;

y = 0;

width = screen.width / 5;

height = 1200-120;

}

 

UIMainView = GUI

More info >>> Triple-head/Multi-Monitor GUI and NVG Fix

 

 

Personal note:

I can understand that you want to first "try" to see how the performance is compared to other optimization that will follow , but I would save my time with this if I where you and start from the beginning with the best optimal setting using SoftTH.

 

As SoftTH will enable you to get the smallest possible render-surface /Bezel-management/ and all in Fullscrenn while Helios is active.... ;)

And SoftTH can also help to bypass some flaws of DCS with multi-monitor configurations like the F10-map view for instance.


Edited by PeterP

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BTW ( to keep you more pressing :D): why you dont try to use your a big touch-screen like this? -

have a look at this and the postings that follows : http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1486408#post1486408

Because that's how I use it already :)

Just mine is "caged".

It was going to get an own thread in the cockpit building section when progress is further ahead but I should give you a better picture on how and why I need what for my setup.

 

For the last half year I fly with a 3 screen setup (1x55"; 1x24"; 1x23") and the second monitor.lua file from my last post.

 

 

64.jpg68.jpg70.jpg

 

 

 

The first pic shows the detachable ICP box with the 7"touch which we will disregard from now on.

That's something I can take care off when DCSF18 gets released.

I tested it in BMS but I cant fly in this minecraft environment anymore for the sake of my eyes.

 

Then some days ago I got this new beast of graphic card which can power 4 monitors alone. So I kicked my 480 and just kept my 580 in addition to the new 680 and was finally able to connect the two other 55" that were catching dust.

So now it looks like this:

 

 

74.jpg76.jpg

 

 

 

Yes I was thinking about trying one viewport with 5760 when l was in bed. :)

I made my setup with 2 monitors and with 3 last year and everything worked logically...kind of ...I probably can recreate your test blindly.

But this time I cant follow its logic completely.

I will of course read everything again you suggested and see what I missed.

 

BTW that I sometimes use screen width and sometimes exact pixels etc in the lua is all from trial and error. the 1200height I used bc I got funny stretching as long as DCS didn't get the exact maximum resolution of all screens.

Don't get why really but maybe tonight after work and hopefully less tired everything makes more sense.

 

 

OFFtopic: An American coworker just saw my streaming and asked: "oh Germany is playing?"... I said: "No...we are not playing...we are destroying!" :D

 

 

I am totally down to do an softTH approach and actually certain that I will go this way.

Also bc of the bezel correction aspect.

I miss pixels like due to a cockpit frame than seeing broken lines/horizons.

But yes I wanna experience the performance and fps and also see my logic to work before I let go.

After that I wanna do the same with layout two and then I go for final with an softTH probably.

This way I hope to get some good comparison which also might be interesting for other multi-monitor users or as arguments for softTH at the end I guess. :)

 

I don't get why even with my old 3 screen setup I can step up in resolution but it crashes when hitting 9600 width!

Same in DCSW btw!

Is there somehow a max resolution???

Anyone ever tried a 9600? guess Gadroc should have...watching his setup


Edited by Weltensegler

4790K@4,6Ghz | EVGA Z97 Classified | 32GB @ 2400Mhz | Titan X hydro copper| SSD 850 PRO

____________________________________

Moments in DCS:

--> https://www.youtube.com/user/weltensegLA

-->

 

WELD's cockpit: --> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=92274

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Alright I studied all your links but I did them all before and understood everything. I manipulated for older setups similar just not with that amount of monitors :) but lua is lua.

 

Thank you very much btw for investing time for that and even recreating setups! I really appreciate that!

 

 

My 5760x1080 test went unfortunately the same way as the 3x1980

 

Test 1:

Ingame resolution 7680x1200

Monitor Lua

 

 

_ = function(p) return p; end;

name = _('HoRiZoNtAl');

Description = '3x55"Center + 1x24"touch + 1x23"touch'

Viewports =

{

Center =

{

x = 0;

y = 0;

width = 5760;

height = 1080;

viewDx = 0;

viewDy = 0;

aspect = 5.33333333333333;

}

}

 

LEFT_MFCD =

{

x = 5807;

y = 54;

width = 420;

height = 420;

}

 

RIGHT_MFCD =

{

x = 7213;

y = 54;

width = 420;

height = 420;

}

 

CMSC_SCREEN =

{

x = 6622;

y = 55;

width = 220;

height = 42;

}

 

RWR_SCREEN =

{

x = 6370;

y = 90;

width = 175;

height = 175;

}

 

GUI=

 

{

x = screen.width / 5;

y = 0;

width = screen.width / 5;

height = 1200-120;

}

 

UIMainView = GUI

 

 

 

Works exactly like expected...leaves the missing 1920 out left and right:

 

 

 

screenshot01.jpg

 

 

 

Test2:

Ingame resolution 9600x1200

Same lua!

= "DCS has stopped working"

 

I just don't get it.

I do have a hard time letting go and leaving this unsolved but I guess that's a good practice.

Will continue to layout 2 now and if that doesn't change anything I move over to the softTH solution.

Will keep you posted.

 

UPDATE: no difference with layout 2

 

UPDATE: Funny softTH on creating the default config complains:

"Requested resolution is too wide for device (9600>8192)"

I guess it tries to get 5x1920 on a card that can only 4x1920.

Does DCS try maybe the same internally? Because that would perfectly make sense with my recent tests.

Only contradiction is that I could power 3x1920 with a 580 before which I believe shouldn't be able to do that either. But I could be wrong on that.

Ayt, turn down the resolution to get my config file for now since all that resolution issue should change later on anyways after setting it up.

 

UPDATE:

WOW! softTH always sounded so complicated to setup.

I don't know why I studied threads about it for hours...took me no 30 min to setup without calculator or sketch and it works.

I am really bad in calculating and don't consider myself smart so everybody who hasn't:"TRY IT"

 

I have some miscalculation in the bezels though :) and I have to rethink the layout.

The least loss would obviously be all lined up but since I found out the hard way that this width is too much I just shot for this here.

Tomorrow I will start optimizing and bringing my helios profile in the lower part and see if I can't reduce the DCS render "surface" but its 5:30am and my eyes are burning like hell :)

 

screenshot03.jpg

 

Gn8 and thanks so far Peter!


Edited by Weltensegler

4790K@4,6Ghz | EVGA Z97 Classified | 32GB @ 2400Mhz | Titan X hydro copper| SSD 850 PRO

____________________________________

Moments in DCS:

--> https://www.youtube.com/user/weltensegLA

-->

 

WELD's cockpit: --> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=92274

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WOW 2.0:

Remember I said softTH is easy? I tried that softTH configuration tool, now that's easy! very nice tool!

 

For anyone that does bezel correction with tool or manually and wonders why everything moves to the left like seen in my last screenshot.

You probably forgot to adjust your monitor lua (like me).

Center view, MFDs and GUI etc all have to move the according pixels to the right.

 

This new card is nice I have to say! (obviously sofTH gets a lot credit for this performance as well)

I run the main screens on 3xHD with MFDs (and some other exports on another HD screen), TrackIR, VAC,big Helios profile on 2xHD touch and have textures, scenes and vis.range on high;HDR on; 4xAA; cockpit shadows and Vsync and still 30+ frames!

I do aim for more or at least 30 on the ground so the vsync/limit makes sense but still I think that's a pretty nice ratio.

 

I do have to find posts ( I think I was reading some solution somewhere) about the fov distortion.

The outer screens have tearing though vsync is on.

I guess I have to force them in the softTHconfig.

Also I cut off useless fps killer like the flickering cloud shadows etc.

 

@PeterP: I see now worse than expected about what you were talking about the visibility of buildings etc.

I can be right over an airfield and have to zoom almost max until the buildings appear.

 

If you have a minute could you look over my softTH config if you see something stupid I missed that wastes performance/quality?

Thank you in advance!

 

 

 

[main]

renderResolution=5860x2280

nonlocalFormat=RGB16D

keepComposition=1

smoothing=0

debugD3D=0

zClear=1

vsync=0

tripleBuffer=0

screenshotFormat=jpg

dllPathD3D9=auto

dllPathDXGI=auto

dllPathD3D11=auto

 

[overrides]

forceResolution=0

antialiasing=0

processAffinity=1

FOVForceHorizontal=0

FOVForceVertical=0

 

[debug]

compatibleIB=0

compatibleTex=0

compatibleVB=0

 

[head_primary]

; borderA=0

; borderL=0

sourceRect=0,0,1920,1080

screenMode=1920x1080

 

[head_1]

; borderA=0

; borderL=50

devID=1

sourceRect=1970,0,1920,1080

destRect=0,0,1920,1080

transportResolution=1920x1080

transportMethod=local

noSync=0

fpsLimit=0

 

[head_2]

; borderA=0

; borderL=0

devID=2

sourceRect=1970,1080,1920,1200

destRect=0,0,1920,1200

transportResolution=1920x1200

transportMethod=local

noSync=0

fpsLimit=0

 

[head_3]

; borderA=0

; borderL=50

devID=3

sourceRect=3940,0,1920,1080

destRect=0,0,1920,1080

transportResolution=1920x1080

transportMethod=local

noSync=0

fpsLimit=0

 

[head_4]

; borderA=0

; borderL=0

devID=4

sourceRect=3940,1080,1920,1080

destRect=0,0,1920,1080

transportResolution=1920x1080

transportMethod=nonlocal16d

noSync=0

fpsLimit=0

 

 

 

screensetup5.jpg

 

 

Since my only display exports are in the upper area of head 2 (lower middle screen), is there no way I can decrease the overall render resolution in height somehow?

The rest is only used by Helios!?


Edited by Weltensegler

4790K@4,6Ghz | EVGA Z97 Classified | 32GB @ 2400Mhz | Titan X hydro copper| SSD 850 PRO

____________________________________

Moments in DCS:

--> https://www.youtube.com/user/weltensegLA

-->

 

WELD's cockpit: --> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=92274

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First: Wasn't able visit the forums the last two days - nice progress you made! - but I will need some time to catch up with you ;)

 

I don't know why I studied threads about it for hours...took me no 30 min to setup without calculator or sketch and it works.
Yes - exactly ! This I also try to "hammer" some folks into the head! :D

First Try - Ask Than! - most of your questions will fade away after you have "played" a little with it !;)

 

Now here are the first answers to some of your questions:

 

 

"Requested resolution is too wide for device (9600>8192)"
Yes! - I totally forgot about this (as it happens so rarely...)

DirectX9 is restricted to a to total of 8192 x 8192 - so we have to get everything somehow inside this square!! (Blame Microsoft for this!;))

 

 

@PeterP: I see now worse than expected about what you were talking about the visibility of buildings etc.

I can be right over an airfield and have to zoom almost max until the buildings ap

Go this way > DCS A-10C - How to increase districts visibility distance

 

Since my only display exports are in the upper area of head 2 (lower middle screen), is there no way I can decrease the overall render resolution in height somehow?

The rest is only used by Helios!?

Yes there is - make your self first free from the thinking that your SoftTH config has to reflect the physical position of your monitors.

 

You can place any DX render content as you wish inside the SoftTH screens and /or even duplicate it, or even only portions...

 

 

See "destRect" >>http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1303406#post1303406

 

 

I see the possibility to cut you overall DCS-render surface down to something like

 

~7000x1080 (= 7.560.000px) instead of 5860x2280 (= 13.360.800px)...

(EDIT: BTW: made a "proof on concept" in the following post - I calculated a total DCS render of 7.833.600px that gives you enough room to "teleport" the renders to your helios-screens using the destRect function of SoftTH)

 

 

But to be sure about this I need more info .

 

>> I need your final (no WiP) MonitorSetup.lua including all exports according your Helios profile you want to show in the end - to make these changes.

 

 

Rule of the thumb for creating a stream-lined SoftTHconfig:

 

>First nail down what you really want to see in the end on your monitors.

>Than have a look what is DCS contend and what is only "Helios".

>Now try to squeese the DCS contend into the smallest possible square while maintaining one aspect-ratio of the additional exports and keeping all in the right relation to each other to be able to change the size without a distortion the final aspect-ratio.

>Than write a config.SoftTHconfig that "teleports" different areas of this DCS render to a mixed render surface with Helios usind the undocumented "destRect" function.

 

Here is a little help how the destRect function works:

 

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=60157&stc=1&d=1323937224

 

 

 

 

 

 

When you got nailed down the final appearance on the screens - than I could show you better how this will work.

 

Here is a example how this can look:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1349597&postcount=60

We will do similar with your setting via the "destRect" function

 

softth-BadCrC-explained.png

 

 

masure.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

-anyway- 30 FPS already sounds really good to me considering your overall used res right now ;).

 

 

If you have a minute could you look over my softTH config if you see something stupid I missed that wastes performance/quality?

Thank you in advance!

Everything fine so far , well ... there could be some changes.

Have a look again at the red letters in posting #1:SoftTH NEWS

... but we have to rewrite it manually absolutely anyway again (something the "softTH configuration tool" isn't capable of.) to get down from 13.360.800px you are using now to something like 8million...

- so we can concentrate on these setting after we have done this .

 

 

 

 

Edit - This relates, but we shouldn't discuss this any further now until we managed to stream-line your settings. I just want to answer on your reply:

Because that's how I use it already smile.gif

Just mine is "caged".

It was going to get an own thread in the cockpit building section when progress is further ahead but I should give you a better picture on how and why I need what for my setup

This is a significant difference to what I mean - but I see that this isn't practical with your cockpit-build - I just wanted to point out that using the real 3d render on a touch-screen would be enable you to use any upcoming DCS module on your pit without the need to export additional view-ports for gauges.

...

 

an example :

I can pan my view to the left in the radio-console and change the frequency... you can't do this because your cockpit is static ;).

 

So : your cut out wooden(?) overlay may looks nice... but it takes away the possibility to use your pit more generic for existing/upcoming modules. - something to think about me thinks.


Edited by PeterP

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Hi again.

 

 

I had a look at the pictures you PMed me.... (and I admit! This build really deserves a own thread :))

and made some edits to one of them - just to give you maybe some inspiration....;)

 

72.jpg

 

 

As I think horizontal FOV is not everything in A10C...

 

Right now you are planning to position the screens like this:

72-hoz.jpg

 

 

But maybe you want to think a second about this possibility - as it is able to do it via SoftTH while DCS runs still fullscreen:

 

72-vert.jpg

 

 

This would give you a better "look-down" ability at the battle-field to plan your attack-run .

 

And you really don't miss anything at the sides.

And you would also have a much more natural FOV as the outer boarders of the side-screens wouldn't be so Stretched any-more - you would use a aspect that comes closer to 1. - actually you would use 2,125 instead 5,333.

 

You could also use the "missing" square under the middle screen (a place of 1920x840 for the avionics exports) to show the additional exports on it and use SoftTH's "destRect" function to spread this info at the Helios screens.

 

So it might be possible to run this setting at a DCS-in-game resolution of "only" 1080+1920+1080x1920 = 4080x1920 = 7.833.600px

(reminder : you are using right now 13.360.800px and have still around 30FPS)

 

Another advantage would be that there is no misplacement of the sun-glare when the "camera" view-port matches your whole in-game-resolution. So you would be able to use the HDR setting without any bug.

 

Still need to find out how to render a black-square underneath some indicators , but I think it is possible to hi-jack the Control indicator for this and colour it solid black by changing the RGB values.. than we will move the solid-black control-indicator to cover the space under the middle screen. >>>http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1409442#post1409442

We will see...

 

 

I think it's worth thinking about it ! ;)

 

 

Edit: found a video that demonstrates fairly well what you can expect to see on the sides:

 

 

EDIT #2:

 

Forget what I wrote about the a black Controllindicator....

I found a easier way and made a proof of concept :

 

 

Here is the used MonitorSetup.Lua for following screen-shot and look at the second view-port.

The "Black" needs a spawn-point that is outside of the render-surface , and than I dragged this window up by using a negative height.

 

 

_ = function(p) return p; end;

name = _('Export example2');

Description = 'Export example';

Viewports =

-- Put your values in , and delete all exports that you don't want to use !

-- You will have to determine the area for the MP/SP GUI

{

Center =

{

x = 0;

y = 0;

width = 2176;

height = 1024;

viewDx = 0;

viewDy = 0;

aspect = 2176 / 1024;

},

 

Black =

-- must be always after

-- the last legit view-port

-- so it is underneath the avionics but on

-- top of the "world"-render

{

x = 576;

y = 1025; -- must be 1px more than screen-height

width = 1024;

height = -449; -- must be negative to "drag it up"

}

}

-- BTW isn't my find brilliant?! ;)

-- my shoulder still hurts because I clapped myself so much on it! XD

 

GUI=

{

x = 576;

y = 0;

width = 1024;

height = 576;

}

 

LEFT_MFCD =

{

x = 576;

y = 576;

width = 150;

height = 150;

}

 

RIGHT_MFCD =

{

x = 576 + 1024 - 150;

y = 576;

width = 150;

height = 150;

}

 

CDU_SCREEN =

{

x = 576 + 160;

y = 576;

width = 150;

height = 150;

}

 

DIGIT_CLOCK =

{

x = 1370;

y = 800;

width = 150;

height = 150;

}

 

CMSC_SCREEN =

{

x = 800;

y = 800;

width = 200;

height = 200;

}

 

CMSP_SCREEN =

{

x = 1050;

y = 800;

width = 200;

height = 200;

}

 

RWR_SCREEN =

{

x = 1300;

y = 800;

width = 300;

height = 300;

}

 

 

 

 

UIMainView = GUI

 

 

 

And this is how it looks on a windowed res of 2176x1024 with and without the "Black" view-port (BTW: all tests made in 1.1.2.1 and a empty "Black" view-port has no hit in performance at all )

 

Screen_120625_201015.jpg

 

 

Screen_120625_200308.jpg


Edited by PeterP

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Yes there is - make your self first free from the thinking that your SoftTH config has to reflect the physical position of your monitors.

 

You can place any DX render content as you wish inside the SoftTH screens and /or even duplicate it, or even only portions...

 

 

See "destRect" >>http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.ph...06#post1303406

 

 

I see the possibility to cut you overall DCS-render surface down to something like

:) Thank you! I will check all links out but I did already another layout.

 

After the decadent monster resolution of last time I thought about reducing the DCS resolution to what it actually needs.

By putting 4 in a row the funny thing is I can even disable the 5th monitor and I can still have a working Helios profile overlapping to it.

Question for you Peter, is it better to not disable the 5th(nonlocal) screen in softTH bc of PCI bus bandwidths/speeds etc?

 

softTH config:

 

 

[main]

renderResolution=7780x1200

nonlocalFormat=RGB16D

keepComposition=1

smoothing=0

debugD3D=0

zClear=0

vsync=1

tripleBuffer=0

screenshotFormat=jpg

dllPathD3D9=auto

dllPathDXGI=auto

dllPathD3D11=auto

 

[overrides]

forceResolution=0

antialiasing=0

processAffinity=1

FOVForceHorizontal=0

FOVForceVertical=0

 

[debug]

compatibleIB=0

compatibleTex=0

compatibleVB=0

 

[head_primary]

; borderA=0

; borderL=50

sourceRect=1970,0,1920,1080

screenMode=1920x1080

 

[head_1]

; borderA=0

; borderL=0

devID=1

sourceRect=0,0,1920,1080

destRect=0,0,1920,1080

transportResolution=1920x1080

transportMethod=local

noSync=0

fpsLimit=0

 

[head_2]

; borderA=0

; borderL=0

devID=2

sourceRect=5860,0,1920,1200

destRect=0,0,1920,1200

transportResolution=1920x1200

transportMethod=local

noSync=0

fpsLimit=0

 

[head_3]

; borderA=0

; borderL=50

devID=3

sourceRect=3940,0,1920,1080

destRect=0,0,1920,1080

transportResolution=1920x1080

transportMethod=local

noSync=0

fpsLimit=0

 

 

 

monitor.lua:

 

 

_ = function(p) return p; end;

name = _('4xHoRiZoNtAl');

Description = '3x55"Center + 1x24"touch + 1x23"touch'

Viewports =

{

Center =

{

x = 0;

y = 0;

width = 5760;

height = 1080;

viewDx = 0;

viewDy = 0;

aspect = 5.333333333;

}

}

 

LEFT_MFCD =

{

x = 5910;

y = 54;

width = 420;

height = 420;

}

 

RIGHT_MFCD =

{

x = 7313;

y = 54;

width = 420;

height = 420;

}

 

CMSC_SCREEN =

{

x = 6722;

y = 55;

width = 220;

height = 42;

}

 

RWR_SCREEN =

{

x = 6470;

y = 90;

width = 175;

height = 175;

}

 

GUI=

 

{

x = 1970;

y = 0;

width = 1920;

height = 1080;

}

 

UIMainView = GUI

 

 

 

 

screensetup5HZshot.jpg

 

The 3 mains creens are all shifted to the left I just see, probably something in the monitor lua.

EDIT: Interesting! one of those main screens is actually 1935 in width at least in those screenshots and the gabs are 20pixels not 50 ...:huh: ...guess I am getting tired

EDIT2: OK got it, monitor lua center resolution needs to be 5860 (5760=2*50(bezel))

 

screensetup4HZ.jpg

 

 

Concerning your portrait suggestion, that is a great idea!

Especially since DCS when set to the correct FOV looks like Flanker or Lomac 1.0 on the left and right screen without messing with the lua files.

And if one would then on cost of a lot performance anyways.

Also I noticed I dont look left or right without using TrackIR really bc you still can zoom to center only(though sometimes its nice to pause it and have everything static).

And the feeling of clouds flying by when peaking to the side I would still have.

Only problem at the moment I have to build a new construction for the screens. They are 55" each and from left to right corner its more than 9 feet when they are in a 45 degree angle so that each one is facing me perfectly!!! :)

But I have already some ideas...will finish the side panels and hull first though.

 

 

After I have figured out the best solution for this horizontal alignment ;)

Thanks again for your help and don't stop if you have more tips or suggestions!

 

Oh one question before I go to bed. Maybe you can save me the experiment or thread studying...

if I would go for 3 center cameras would the distortion be gone/less/different?

I work with cameras and resolutions every day in my job but a game engine seems to behave different than I am used to it.

And I cant find different lenses or distortion grids here either :)


Edited by Weltensegler

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Question for you Peter, is it better to not disable the 5th(nonlocal) screen in softTH bc of PCI bus bandwidths/speeds etc?

 

Of course you should disable it!- let me explain it to you with a German saying: What doesn't pay any rent - gets kicked out!

 

So if a monitor don't have any relevant game contend on it - just don't include it as SoftTH monitor. ;) A good monitor-setup for DCS is no charity-gala ! :D so don't waste any pixels, bandwidth, cpu/gpu cycles and V-ram.

 

 

 

After I have figured out the best solution for this horizontal alignment ;)

Thanks again for your help and don't stop if you have more tips or suggestions!

The DCS specific bug fixes ar still not in your conffig.SoftTHconfig.

Red letters-posting #1 at the top >>>SoftTH NEWS

 

Use this High.lua in Config errain and make a test-flight around Tbilisi to see the different. (make a backup of your default) and also check performance.

 

Further:

cut down the Res of [head_2] to 1920x1080 - so it looks like this:

[main]

renderResolution=7780x1080

.

.

.

 

[head_2]

; borderA=0

; borderL=0

devID=2

sourceRect=5860,0,1920,1080

destRect=0,0,1920,1080

transportResolution=1920x1080

transportMethod=local

noSync=0

fpsLimit=0

Than you will be able to use 7780x1080 instead of 7780x1200 as ingame-res

 

thast's minus 933600px again .

 

But than you have to keep in mind to multiply all Y/Height values of this monitor with *0.9

to get the exports aligned again . As the pixel ratio is now 1:0.9 instead of 1:1

 

example for your R-MFCD how this would look:

 

RIGHT_MFCD =

{

x = 7313;

y = 54 * 0.9;

width = 420;

height = 420 * 0.9;

}

Note: using a multiplier is much easier than using the true pixel values - as you can still calculate all values the same as your screen would be still 1920x1200 ;)

 

 

 

 

Oh one question before I go to bed. Maybe you can save me the experiment or thread studying...

if I would go for 3 center cameras would the distortion be gone/less/different?

I work with cameras and resolutions every day in my job but a game engine seems to behave different than I am used to it.

And I cant find different lenses or distortion grids here either :)

 

Seems you are really tired - as I gave you the appropriate links already in posting #7 in point 1.

 

Have also a look at this

 

 

And there is really not much that you can do about it - OK you can use a warper like NTHUSIM - but it only works good for projectors - as you will always end up with black areas in the borders of your screens.

 

And start reading here again to get the info "somewhat" compact (BTW - you are posted shortly after me in this thread):Side view monitors

 

In short (again;)): Using different view ports for the camera view is only advisable for static projections = means no TrackIR or changing FOV. This projection method is commonly used in spherical/cubic environments and also needs special hardware/software for edge-blending and alignment.

 

Something that doesn't works well on a almost "planar" TrippleHead -even if the screens are at 45° - Yes - you can lower the distortion , but ...see how the horizon describes a zig-zack instead of a even line when moving your view.

 

That's why I suggested this portrait-landscape-portait setting. As I knew that you wouldn't be happy with this distorted edges on a 16:3 setting.

I think a optimal render has a aspect ratio around 2:1 - it really shouldn't get much more wider as this for a pleasing view.

 

And this I wanted to get with this portrait-landscape-portait. And it has also many advantages that I described above.

 

 

Have a good sleep ! - and try to dream from something different than configuration-files ;)


Edited by PeterP

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The DCS specific bug fixes ar still not in your conffig.SoftTHconfig.

Red letters-posting #1 at the top >>>SoftTH NEWS

 

I am aware of that but the sofTH help file said:

enableVBQuirk: Enable "quirk-mode" for vertex buffers which allows

the game to lock a too large area of a vertex buffer. This was

required by DCS A-10C beta but the bug has been fixed in later versions.

...so I thought that might not be necessary anymore. But I will check whatelse I missed and yes red your the whole thread when I pointed you to the resource management menu lua lines :)

 

Seems you are really tired - as I gave you the appropriate links already in posting #7 in point 1.

Yes I am :) I totally remember watching that video. And I cant even imagine any spherical mapping or post distortion grids (that dont exist within DCS anyways) that would give my setup what I wish for.

Most distortions I deal with at work are barely based on wider lenses than 24mm which on a common aperture width is way shorter than my setup :).

 

I will try your high lua tomorrow. I just finished some tests with current adjustments.

Little wiered results with the softTH framecounter.

On first instant mission (not a lot detail thought)I get about 45-47 fps with 8xaa, hdr; cockpit shadows and everything high.

Global softTHVsync on reduces frames to 32-35 unless I look up then ~45...I would expect it cuts it to 30 to fit my 60Hz screen input.

If I limit frames to 30 it cuts to ~32fps and same but with sofTH vsync cuts it to 31 which is the smoothest result and actually what I would expect from 30fps.

I believe to remember that the frame limiter in DCS is 1 frame off, if so then it makes partially sense.

If I also bring in the DCS vsync it gets chunky.

Cant follow all logic of the results but I found my smoothest.

 

I hope I don't annoy you too much in my conditions but I am always tired when I have time for my hobby :) ..very long and exhausting hours at work.

:sleep:

Have a good day!

4790K@4,6Ghz | EVGA Z97 Classified | 32GB @ 2400Mhz | Titan X hydro copper| SSD 850 PRO

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--> https://www.youtube.com/user/weltensegLA

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I am aware of that but the sofTH help file said:

Quote:

enableVBQuirk: Enable "quirk-mode" for vertex buffers which allows

the game to lock a too large area of a vertex buffer. This was

required by DCS A-10C beta but the bug has been fixed in later versions.

;) its still necessary to use this.

The helpfile of SoftTH isn't updated for every new DCS version.

Be assured that I would post this in the "SoftTH News" thread otherwise.

 

 

FPS-Counter and SoftTH:

To be honest - I wouldn't trust any FPS counter when using SoftTH with mixed render-surfaces like Helios...

If you only show pure SoftTH contend - OK - I can trust the SoftTH fps... but when also showing Helios....I don't think so.

There is too much going on under the hood - and you don't really know how each FPS tool really try to measure a setting like this.

Here is something to think about:

DCS only measures the frame intern - just to the point it hands out the data to SoftTH.

So you can not trust that the DCS-FPS-counter really shows your true FPS every-time.

You have to expect a little delay - even if it is only in the milliseconds. A Delay is a Delay :)

 

Rule of the thumb: If the overall experience is nice: just cap your FPS something like 29 to 39 in DCS ! - this will also prevent you to always have the FPS counter on and it will prevent you to hunt schizophrenic any "ghosts" ;). -I hope you get my point.

 

A almost steady 30FPS is smoother in experience as a FPS that jumps between 30 to 60!

 

I hope I don't annoy you too much in my conditions but I am always tired when I have time for my hobby smile.gif ..very long and exhausting hours at work.

sleep.gif

No problem at all! I see it as a sport and challenge ;).

True: being nine hours ahead of you can be complicated :D , but...

 

...as long you are able to follow and (as I see) to learn - than is everything OK!

 

Just look back - and see what you have achieved the last days! :)

 

 

BTW: I'm happy for every thread about this topic that is so less-cluttered and is containing every useful info as compact as our "conversation"...

 

So when another may think about a similar setting and wonder "how-to": I just can hand out the link and say "read everything in this Thread and try to understand!" ;)

(I already catalogued this thread to my "useful link-folder")


Edited by PeterP

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A almost steady 30FPS is smoother in experience as a FPS that jumps between 30 to 60!
Tottally that's what I'm saying and why I cut it at 30.

The display runs at 60Hz so there are only 2 smooth frame rates that one can try to achieve. 60 and 30 (15 one can't consider smooth anymore :) )

Which sucks balls every day for me bc a lot shots that are always 24fps I have to watch on displays that run on 60Hz, one can NEVER watch a shot perfectly fluid.

There are only a few very expensive projectors that allow you to set it to 48 or something. At least in the scale and stereoscopic we need it.

 

And most other reasons for stuttering in DCS I eliminated by good hardware like SSD drives and fast MB and RAM as well as water cooled overclocked CPU.

Its very smooth now besides some hick ups when a city or clouds come close.

But to be honest DCS engine is not the best example for fluid and efficient data management so I am pretty satisfied the way it runs.

 

wink.gif its still necessary to use this.

The helpfile of SoftTH isn't updated for every new DCS version.

Be assured that I would post this in the "SoftTH News" thread otherwise.

Will add the line then of course! :)

 

Just look back - and see what you have achieved the last days! smile.gif
Yeah on Saturday I didn't have to work so I actually even found some time to do noise and some wood and built this here :)

 

 

78.jpg

 

 

 

Oh BTW at some point I kinda have to put in a USBtouch screen into this setup as you might have seen in my ICP picture (once DCS-F18C gets released).

64.jpg

 

(ignore the left and right usb screens they are not worth the performance los) And I know its gonna be bad but curious how bad.

I think you once talked about how the data gets handled in the case of bringing in a USB display.

Could you explain that again in a few lines or if you have gimme the link to where you did?

 

BTW: I'm happy for every thread about this topic that is so less-cluttered and is containing every useful info as compact as our "conversation"...
I agree! A lot visuals and a lot answers on these two pages.

Should save some time for the next one facing these issues.


Edited by Weltensegler

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I think you once talked about how the data gets handled in the case of bringing in a USB display.

Could you explain that again in a few lines or if you have gimme the link to where you did?

In a few lines ?! - You are kidding- right?! :D

This can fill another book....;)

 

I remember the thread --- but I can't find it now.

 

But as a starter extract the info given in this thread:

>>> Is this monitor setup possible with Helios and softth

 

BTW: For everyone that is looking for the function to lock your FPS in DCS:

 

Open with a proper editor (Notepad++) > \DCS World\Config\graphics.cfg

 

and edit line # 329 to your wished MaxFPS minus 1.

 

rule of the thumb : always use a multiplier of your refresh-rate to get the smoothest experience.

 

Example for capped 30 FPS:

MaxFPS = 29;
(please don't ask why it is minus 1 ... I don't know , but a possible explanation is that DCS counts 0 as 1)
Edited by PeterP

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But as a starter extract the info given in this thread:

>>> Is this monitor setup possible with Helios and softth

Thank you!

 

BTW: For everyone that is looking for the function to lock your FPS in DCS:

 

Open with a proper editor (Notepad++) > \DCS World\Config\graphics.cfg

 

and edit line # 329 to your wished MaxFPS minus 1.

 

rule of the thumb : always use a multiplier of your refresh-rate to get the smoothest experience.

 

Example for capped 30 FPS:

(please don't ask why it is minus 1 ... I don't know , but a possible explanation is that DCS counts 0 as 1)

That's what how I understood it in the past but some tests I made seem to follow the theory that most FPS counter rather count +1 and that the DCS or FC fps limit at 30 brought smoother results than having it at 29 while frame counter shows 30.

I suggest everybody should try it both ways...let me rephrase that :) ...should try both options and see what turns out with less/none stuttering.

Especially since other options play an influencing role here as well.

 

Also this thread here might give some ideas (or more confusion) about this topic

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=80179&highlight=supersmooth+motion

 

rule of the thumb : always use a multiplier of your refresh-rate to get the smoothest experience.

And don't just assume this one!

I helped people in the past to their most fluid frame rate that had it on 59Hz as default.

Using a prime makes it really hard to find a multiplier :) and you will never get rid of stuttering.


Edited by Weltensegler

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  • 3 weeks later...
Oh BTW at some point I kinda have to put in a USBtouch screen into this setup as you might have seen in my ICP picture (once DCS-F18C gets released).

64.jpg

 

What size screen(s) do you have behind that? cause that looks very good. Maybe when I have some more money I'll take the time and build me something like that!

i7-4820k @ 3.7, Windows 7 64-bit, 16GB 1866mhz EVGA GTX 970 2GB, 256GB SSD, 500GB WD, TM Warthog, TM Cougar MFD's, Saitek Combat Pedals, TrackIR 5, G15 keyboard, 55" 4K LED

 

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The Front panel has a 24" touch (elo) behind it and left and right are 7" usb screens originally meant for fuel and graphic card monitoring.

But I don't use them at all now bc usb screens as you know suck a lot performance and I am scared enough using the 7" touch screen in my detachable ICP in the middle.

I deal with that when the F18 is there.

 

On the right I have a 23" touch for left and right helios panel and

the main screens are 3 x 55"

Don't do it! way to big! Its almost 180 degr when the face me all and more than 9feet wide even angled and the lens distortion is ugly.

I will either go to only use half of the outta ones or turn them vertically.

On the other hand in 2 years the performance is there to run additional distortion correction software on top of this resolution.

 

 

 

Looks like this now:

76.jpg

74.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

Atm I am building the side panels and "fuselage" :)

 

78.jpg

 

I post the project soon in the cockpit building section with all progress pics.

I can PM you then if you like.

At least I couldn't get enough cockpit projects to look at...inspires :)

4790K@4,6Ghz | EVGA Z97 Classified | 32GB @ 2400Mhz | Titan X hydro copper| SSD 850 PRO

____________________________________

Moments in DCS:

--> https://www.youtube.com/user/weltensegLA

-->

 

WELD's cockpit: --> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=92274

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Thx, that's a nice set it. Hopefully we'll be able to extract gauges from DCS like I can in BMS. Like I said, once I get more time and money I want to redo my front panel and build it around a 22-24 inch monitor. I plan on having 5th gen cockpit, with less individual gauges like the F-22 and F-35. I also think I'm going to hook my old 8800GT and use that for the extra monitor(s) instead of my external video adapter. I got a old ATI video card for free a few months back that I'll use for the kids computer a.k.a my old computer that died on me. LOL, can't believe I didn't think of that weeks ago!

i7-4820k @ 3.7, Windows 7 64-bit, 16GB 1866mhz EVGA GTX 970 2GB, 256GB SSD, 500GB WD, TM Warthog, TM Cougar MFD's, Saitek Combat Pedals, TrackIR 5, G15 keyboard, 55" 4K LED

 

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This thread has been good, I will give softth a try tomorrow and see what happens with the 5 screens I have, if I can come up with an arrangement to give me better frames. Not that better frames is something I am searching for, I also get 30 most of the time but it cannot hurt and I would like to see if there is something I can do to get a better map view.

 

Another thing that has got me curious is portrait mode. When I was on small monitors, the 24" ones I didnt think I could do it with the bezels so close. You have me wondering about what it may be like with my 42" screens. At the moment with 900mm of viewable center area before the bezels come in to play the 500mm in portrait mode doesnt seem like a lot. I wonder if I will feel cramped. I guess you have to try to know althought thats easier said than done with large screens!

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