New Chinese fighter? SAC F60.

[EtherealN]

Pyroflash, do you have the actual source? I'd be most interested in reading it because I find it very hard to believe the conclusion you are painting.

 

 

EDIT:

and the leading developer of new technologies (i.e. more patents developed than other countries).

 

Ooooo, dangerous. Don't equate patent issue with development directly. There's so much funny business going on with patents (both in the US and elsewhere) that this cannot be used - and remember that a patent being issued does NOT indicate that anything was actually developed or invented. The US Patent Office does not test feasibilty of the claims in the patent - this is why there's tonnes of people with actual, genuine, patents for various free energy machines and perpetuum mobiles. And that's before we start with the topic of "design patents", such as apples now-famous patents on the "wedge shape", on the "rectangle with curved corners", and the (older) Amazon patent on the... smiley...

 

These remain patents until challenged in court, which will of course only happen if the holder attempts to enforce them through the courts.

Edited September 18, 2012 by EtherealN

[marcos]

Haven't seen anything about that myself. They have Loongson-based computer that already does a petaFLOP at peak in service, but obviously this is with a couple hundred processors.

 

I would however not be surprised if they have long-reaching plans and research in that direction. 6 years isn't much time - Intel is working in that timeframe already, and Sandy Bridge had been in development for ~6 years when it was released.

The last I heard they were using viruses to build nano-electronics.

[marcos]

No, the U.S. is the leading exporter of capital goods (49% of all of our exports are capital goods, and we are the world's 2nd leading nation in terms of industrial output), and the leading developer of new technologies (i.e. more patents developed than other countries).

 

The actual production facilities (i.e. the places that USE those capital goods) are located elsewhere simply because it is cheaper.

You would wonder why you don't have a trade surplus then and why you have a AA- credit rating.

 

As regards patents, patents for what? Citing the Apple vs Samsung case it seems that everything down to 'generic finger movements' is being patented so that companies who've ran out of innovation, can try legislation.

 

 

Pyroflash, do you have the actual source? I'd be most interested in reading it because I find it very hard to believe the conclusion you are painting.

 

 

EDIT:

 

 

Ooooo, dangerous. Don't equate patent issue with development directly. There's so much funny business going on with patents (both in the US and elsewhere) that this cannot be used - and remember that a patent being issued does NOT indicate that anything was actually developed or invented. The US Patent Office does not test feasibilty of the claims in the patent - this is why there's tonnes of people with actual, genuine, patents for various free energy machines and perpetuum mobiles. And that's before we start with the topic of "design patents", such as apples now-famous patents on the "wedge shape", on the "rectangle with curved corners", and the (older) Amazon patent on the... smiley...

 

These remain patents until challenged in court, which will of course only happen if the holder attempts to enforce them through the courts.

Exactly, patent number is more likely down to legal savvy than innovation. I can create something in Europe and get a national patent, then someone can effectively steal the idea and patent it in other countries.

Edited September 18, 2012 by marcos

[EtherealN]

The last I heard they were using viruses to build nano-electronics.

 

:D

 

 

World's smallest electric motor. :)

(Though not chinese.)

[marcos]

:D

 

 

World's smallest electric motor. :)

(Though not chinese.)

Wait 'til they get unionised.:lol:

[Pyroflash]

You would wonder why you don't have a trade surplus then and why you have a AA- credit rating.

 

As regards patents, patents for what? Citing the Apple vs Samsung case it seems that everything down to 'generic finger movements' is being patented so that companies who've ran out of innovation, can try legislation.

 

 

 

Exactly, patent number is more likely down to legal savvy than innovation. I can create something in Europe and get a national patent, then someone can effectively steal the idea and patent it in other countries.

 

Patent point aside, I see the point being made here.

 

The U.S. is #3 purely in terms of trade, with the total trade value at something like $1,497,000,000,000 in 2011 (just behind the EU and China ($1,791,000,000,000 and $1,904,000,000,000 respectively)). You can see that we aren't exactly doing poorly in the export market.

 

The reason (among other things) why the U.S. credit rating has been downgraded, and why we have so much debt, is because while our economy is still extremely strong, the U.S. government can't seem to control their spending. In fact, we could shut down the entire federal side of the government, stop paying all our employees, erase the military, and still be left with increasing debt. The amount of social programs and incentives combined with the low tax rate is what is increasing our debt, not the practices of private firms. Much the same is true for the E.U., however they have been suffering in many different ways far beyond from what the U.S. has had to deal with so far.

 

I am not making these numbers up, feel free to refute them with facts if you want.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Pyroflash

[EtherealN]

Exactly, patent number is more likely down to legal savvy than innovation. I can create something in Europe and get a national patent, then someone can effectively steal the idea and patent it in other countries.

 

Indeed. There was a heavily publicised case over here a while ago where a swedish inventor had spent millions trying to defend his color CRT patent in the US - his patent was valid for sweden and europe, and he then got tricked by some lawyer (according to himself at least) which then allowed Dell etcetera to "steal" the patent in the US.

 

How to solve that kind of problem internationally I'm clueless about, but I'm certainly very very cautious with using patent issue as a measure of innovation in a country. It's the same as using rape convictions to compare the prevalence of rape between countries; becomes extremely problematic since different countries have different definitions of "rape". Some of the things that is considered "rape" in sweden isn't even a misdemeanour in many other countries! So making the comparison becomes if not impossible, at least extremely difficult.

 

(And for sure, the swedish patent offices aren't necessarily better than the american ones when it comes to sanity-checking patent applications. I expect clerks in both camps are equally overworked. :P )

[aaron886]

Been a lot happening in china in the last 10 years. :)

 

No doubt. I think my point stands, in many ways, but at the speed they're progressing it won't stand for long.

[marcos]

Patent point aside, I see the point being made here.

 

The U.S. is #3 purely in terms of trade, with the total trade value at something like $1,497,000,000,000 in 2011 (just behind the EU and China ($1,791,000,000,000 and $1,904,000,000,000 respectively)). You can see that we aren't exactly doing poorly in the export market.

 

The reason (among other things) why the U.S. credit rating has been downgraded, and why we have so much debt, is because while our economy is still extremely strong, the U.S. government can't seem to control their spending. In fact, we could shut down the entire federal side of the government, stop paying all our employees, erase the military, and still be left with increasing debt. The amount of social programs and incentives combined with the low tax rate is what is increasing our debt, not the practices of private firms. Much the same is true for the E.U., however they have been suffering in many different ways far beyond from what the U.S. has had to deal with so far.

 

I am not making these numbers up, feel free to refute them with facts if you want.

The reason you're in debt is because several US banks created a law-proof ponzi scheme. That's the reason most of the western world is in debt in fact.

 

A large proportion of public spending goes towards paying the interest on the debt, an ultra large portion of which was caused by private sector banks. Even if you cut off all government spending, the interest on the $16tr of debt would be circa $0.8tr/annum. And that doesn't include individual state debt and the interest on that.

 

Then there's the issue of large multinationals shipping production overseas, while selling goods at home and not paying tax anywhere.

 

Have a look at how much social programs actually cost and come back with a figure. The biggest social program since 2008 has been Wall Street and all the foreclosed homes are now being sold off for next to nothing to large private investors.

 

You still have trade, as you would expect for a major international power, but the unemployment and constant routing of wealth in the wrong direction, by social means, has dried up the market.

Edited September 19, 2012 by marcos

[EtherealN]

Guys, the subject is the new Chinese fighter. Not the politics of the financial problems in the US.

[Pyroflash]

Edit: Soz, I was searching while I was writing. The F-60 sux (completely relevant, I will shut up now :D).

Edited September 19, 2012 by Pyroflash

[blackbelter]

As a matter of fact there is not so much of a discussion here... People are commenting on everything as if they have read the designer's notebook and flight manual of the new Chinese fighter. Some people appear to have had a good glance at some classified documents concerning the information technological capabilities of China. However, let's face it: most of the specs of the new Chinese fighters are top secrets. So it is not surprising that most statements I've seen in this thread are based on assumptions -- mostly biased assumptions -- which do not constitute facts. At most, it is an announcement of personal opinions, from which no possible conclusion can be drawn.

 

I am not against that, FYI. People are biased, and people do have the right to announce their opinions. But I would much appreciate it if you did not state it as if it is a fact, but make it clear that it nothing more than your personal opinion.

 

You want to play as an unbiased judge while being so obviously biased? Come on. Give me a break.

Edited September 19, 2012 by blackbelter

[blackbelter]

And for those who are trying to base their statements on facts that are available to us: I salute you. Thanks for educating us.

 

For those China-haters: I pity you... Indeed I do. You must be suffering on a daily basis, seeing the exciting development in China. I feel sorry for you.

Edited September 19, 2012 by blackbelter

[topol-m]

And for those who are trying to base their statements on facts that are available to us: I salute you. Thanks for educating us.

 

For those China-haters: I pity you... Indeed I do. You must be suffering on a daily basis, seeing the exciting development in China. I feel sorry for you.

 

Yet it is your posts that emit hate, nobody here said they hate China. Blinded by pride, patriotism and hate for you neighbors and for everybody who does not see your country in the same light you do, you fail to see the evident. Maybe if you quit living in the past and look at the future with a clear mind it would be for the best.

[blackbelter]

Yet it is your posts that emit hate, nobody here said they hate China. Blinded by pride, patriotism and hate for you neighbors and for everybody who does not see your country in the same light you do, you fail to see the evident. Maybe if you quit living in the past and look at the future with a clear mind it would be for the best.

 

My posts emit hate? Toward whom? You? Let me remind you that it was you who insulted my country in the first place. As on the matter of hatred, frankly speaking, personally I don't hate you Japanese. I used to, but I don't any more. I found it not a healthy emotion in the long term, and not a helpful one either. But that doesn't mean we can just forget history. One can forget certain part of history only when one is sure that everything related to that part of history is settled, and that it is not gonna fight its way back into one's reality once more, especially when it involves insulting, hurting, killing and burning. Unfortunately, we are not there yet. Thanks to people like Ishihara Shintarō, we have to remind ourselves of the history from time to time, and to prepare for the worst senario in the future. Even you cannot deny that.

 

Probably 'hater' is too strong a word to be used here. Do you have a better word to describe those people who are just naturally biased against China? I am open to suggestions you know. But if you deny the existence of such people, your suggestion then means nothing to me, and I would call YOU blind.

[topol-m]

My posts emit hate? Toward whom? You? Let me remind you that it was you who insulted my country in the first place. As on the matter of hatred, frankly speaking, personally I don't hate you Japanese. I used to, but I don't any more. I found it not a healthy emotion in the long term, and not a helpful one either. But that doesn't mean we can just forget history. One can forget certain part of history only when one is sure that everything related to that part of history is settled, and that it is not gonna fight its way back into one's reality once more, especially when it involves insulting, hurting, killing and burning. Unfortunately, we are not there yet. Thanks to people like Ishihara Shintarō, we have to remind ourselves of the history from time to time, and to prepare for the worst senario in the future. Even you cannot deny that.

 

Probably 'hater' is too strong a word to be used here. Do you have a better word to describe those people who are just naturally biased against China? I am open to suggestions you know. But if you deny the existence of such people, your suggestion then means nothing to me, and I would call YOU blind.

 

See I'm not even Japanese. I will not comment on how I feel about China's politics, ambitions, history, etc. This thread is about a new Chinese fighter and has had a lot of off topic posts in it already. Once everybody gets too emotional and the discussion goes irrational then you cannot get any useful info out of it. "Haters"? "Pity"? "Killing, burning"?... Let's leave that to the nationalistic forums out there and lets talk about the damn plane or not talk at all.

[Cali]

Don't worry viper should be here shortly to fix all this. I agree, lets talk about the fighter and nothing else.

[blackbelter]

Agreed.

[wilky510]

My posts emit hate? Toward whom? You? Let me remind you that it was you who insulted my country in the first place. As on the matter of hatred, frankly speaking, personally I don't hate you Japanese. I used to, but I don't any more. I found it not a healthy emotion in the long term, and not a helpful one either. But that doesn't mean we can just forget history. One can forget certain part of history only when one is sure that everything related to that part of history is settled, and that it is not gonna fight its way back into one's reality once more, especially when it involves insulting, hurting, killing and burning. Unfortunately, we are not there yet. Thanks to people like Ishihara Shintarō, we have to remind ourselves of the history from time to time, and to prepare for the worst senario in the future. Even you cannot deny that.

 

Probably 'hater' is too strong a word to be used here. Do you have a better word to describe those people who are just naturally biased against China? I am open to suggestions you know. But if you deny the existence of such people, your suggestion then means nothing to me, and I would call YOU blind.

Lighten up man. People always trash on US aircraft simply because they're made by US(a big thing on youtube), while also praising RuAF aircraft for being unstoppable simply because they're not USA Branded. :thumbup:

 

I had someone tell me the other day the F-22 has no stealth and the USA makes it up.....

 

Non-stop comments about how the F-22 is a failure because of the oxygen system.

 

It doesn't bother me, and i respect Russian aircraft and both American aircraft. It's just human nature. Shouldn't let it get to you!

[marcos]

I had someone tell me the other day the F-22 has no stealth and the USA makes it up.....

Well, whilst probably untrue in this regard, there is a cold war history of simply making shit up to rattle the opposition. Remember the SDI.

[Pyroflash]

I'm curious as to what engines the F-60 will use? There have been speculations on the use of AL-31F or RD-33 engines to power the initial prototypes until China can get their own engines into production.

[GripenNG]

I´ve read somewhere it uses the RD-93 engine, but is this an upgrade to the RD-33?

[marcos]

I´ve read somewhere it uses the RD-93 engine, but is this an upgrade to the RD-33?

Edited September 19, 2012 by marcos

[Pyroflash]

I´ve read somewhere it uses the RD-93 engine, but is this an upgrade to the RD-33?

 

Yeah, the RD-93 is an RD-33 with some (minor) variations made to fit the FC-1.

[marcos]

Yeah, the RD-93 is an RD-33 with some (minor) variations made to fit the FC-1.

A little bit of increased thrust too ref. picture (98kN = 22,000lbf).