Test: M1 vs. T-80s Track Files included

[JCamel]

Are you suggesting adding a 'moonshiner' skill setting?

 

I think things are a bit skewed in the sim but I also think that NATO anti-ship missile technology needs improving. The days of gliding sub-sonic missiles past major naval air-defence systems are gone, unless you're fighting against some shit-hole navy operating out of patrol boats. Worryingly, even Syria has P-800s.

Edited July 20, 2012 by JCamel

[Invader ZIM]

I did a mission I created in A-10C 1.1.1.1. that had the CG-60 up against 5 of the small attack craft with Moskits.

 

The result was interesting, in 1.1.1.1. The CG-60 simultaneously fired it's Standard missiles at the enemy ships. This I think is correct because it is mentioned the SM-2's do have surface to surface capibility.

 

The CG-60 also launched all 8 of it's harpoons, as well as a few tomahawk ASM's at these ships.

 

The Phalanx system, when I had the CG-60 move to cross the path of the missile worked as advertised, shooting down the large asm's as they came down the same flight patch toward the Normandy, but not before some were intercepted by the SM-2's. Other missions had 1 or 2 missiles get through sometimes.

 

In DCS World, the CG-60 is behaving much more lethargic. Not firing any tomahawks, and the Phalanx sometimes not engaging as it should, sometimes waiting until the supersonic missiles are under 1 mile in range before even slewing to the target to fire, instead of detecting the threat and already slewing in position to fire earlier.

 

Remember that tactics play a big part. I think the U.S. navy tactic is to have HARM equipped F-18's poke out the sensors on enemy ships, greatly reducing their ability to fight after the initial attack. Also, I think the Navy also used Air Launched decoys that would prompt enemy ships to turn on their systems, thereby opening them up for a saturation HARM/decoy missile attack. Couple this with a coordinated timed attack to allow the Harpoons to arrive at about the same time and then you can see how even a slow ASM like the Harpoon or Tomahawk can still penetrate defenses.

 

 

I'm a bit busy today, but I'll see if I can set up the .trk files with version 1.1.1.1. and compare with World 1.20 this weekend.

 

P.S. if you want a laugh, in Combined Arms, take the M113 air defence vehicle with the 20mm cannon and jump in the drivers seat. Then proceed to fire it's primarily HE 20mm ammo into the front of an M1A2, you will destroy the M1A2.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Invader ZIM

[JCamel]

Hmmm, strange, I put a Moskit vessel up against 2 CG-60s and the CV-70 and it managed to sink one of the CG-60s before being sunk in 1.1.1.1.

 

I think me and Eddie discussed the M1A2 being killed with just 70 30mm rounds in another thread. Clearly it wouldn't happen in real-life or people just wouldn't bother with large caliber tank cannons.

 

I still think we need faster anti-ship missiles. Even with the decoys, the time available to engage is considerable relative to several Mach 3 missiles coming in from different directions, even Mach 4+ in the case of the Kh-22 and it's entirely possible that faster ones may exist (e.g. Kh-32, Kh-90, Iskander-K), then you have China's DF-21D ASBM.

 

I think they are working on the LRASM-B and some hypersonic cruise missiles though.

[Invader ZIM]

Okay, just had to try this out in 1.1.1.1. and 1.20 World.

 

Regardless of the outcomes at this time, there is definately something amiss with the AI in 1.20.

 

In 1.1.1.1. the track is for one CG 60 against one Veliky. In the track quite a fight ensues between both ships. There's interception of ASM's and there's saturation missile attacks attempted.

 

In 1.20 World, only the CG 60 Fired, and it only fired a single Harpoon. The Veliky never tried to intercept the missiles until the SA-10's got at it. Then the CG 60 would fire another missile.... and repeat for all 4 Harpoons that were aimed toward the Veliky. The Veliky never attempted to fire on the Normandy.

 

In both tracks the ships are just within visual range and in all instances are set to "Excellent" skill.

 

For reference here's the tracks. CG vs. GBC is 1.1.1.1.

CG vs. GBG is 1.20 World version.

CG vs. GBC.trk

CG vs GBG.trk

Edited July 20, 2012 by Invader ZIM

[JCamel]

Did you set the Velikiy to Alarm State - RED and ROE - WEAPONS FREE?

[JCamel]

Hmm, I've just tried in DCS World 1.2 and noticed several problems. The water sound when watching the Velikiy disappeared, neither ship fired and the CG-60 can't be made do more than 15kmh in editor????

 

EDIT: Hmm, weird, can now????

Edited July 20, 2012 by JCamel

[Invader ZIM]

lol, actually I didn't. I just put both ships in the mission and didn't change any settings for both versions 1111 and 1.20. Let me check again and see if that makes a difference.

 

Also, for reference, here's some data on the Standard missiles the Aegis ships use, the paper states that the Standard is also a surface to surface missile, so in a way at closer ranges at least, the Aegis ships have a supersonic anti ship missile capability coupled with the subsonic variety. Based on what is known of the SM-2, the range is over 200 nautical miles for the missile, my estimate is that is for air interception, ground to ground might be less.

 

http://www.bga-aeroweb.com/Defense/Standard-Missile.html

 

Edit: in the mission editor I am not finding any way to set either ship to Alert Red and Fire like I can with ground units.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Invader ZIM

[JCamel]

Okay, just had to try this out in 1.1.1.1. and 1.20 World.

 

Regardless of the outcomes at this time, there is definately something amiss with the AI in 1.20.

 

In 1.1.1.1. the track is for one CG 60 against one Veliky. In the track quite a fight ensues between both ships. There's interception of ASM's and there's saturation missile attacks attempted.

 

In 1.20 World, only the CG 60 Fired, and it only fired a single Harpoon. The Veliky never tried to intercept the missiles until the SA-10's got at it. Then the CG 60 would fire another missile.... and repeat for all 4 Harpoons that were aimed toward the Veliky. The Veliky never attempted to fire on the Normandy.

 

In both tracks the ships are just within visual range and in all instances are set to "Excellent" skill.

 

For reference here's the tracks. CG vs. GBC is 1.1.1.1.

CG vs. GBG is 1.20 World version.

Yep, error confirmed. No 5V55R. No 48N6E2. No Granit. No BGM-109.

[JCamel]

lol, actually I didn't. I just put both ships in the mission and didn't change any settings for both versions 1111 and 1.20. Let me check again and see if that makes a difference.

 

Also, for reference, here's some data on the Standard missiles the Aegis ships use, the paper states that the Standard is also a surface to surface missile, so in a way at closer ranges at least, the Aegis ships have a supersonic anti ship missile capability coupled with the subsonic variety. Based on what is known of the SM-2, the range is over 200 nautical miles for the missile, my estimate is that is for air interception, ground to ground might be less.

 

http://www.bga-aeroweb.com/Defense/Standard-Missile.html

 

Edit: in the mission editor I am not finding any way to set either ship to Alert Red and Fire like I can with ground units.

I've seen that too but it's not really effective against large vessels with armoured hulls as it has a small AA warhead.

 

Use Add Waypoint Action, Set Option>>ROE>>WEAPONS FREE and Set Option>>Alarm State>>RED

 

Doesn't make any difference though. The Velikiy does not fire.

[Raven434th]

The Russian cannon-launched guided missiles are, quite frankly, not that useful.

 

Why? Size. The penetration capability of a shaped-charge warhead is determined primarily by the diameter of the warhead. The Svir/ Reflecks has, at most, a 125mm diameter warhead. That's exactly the same warhead as the non-guided HEAT rounds carried by the T80 and M1. Probably LESS than the non-guided HEAT rounds, because there has to be room for the motor and guidance system.

 

Now, anyone who knows anything about armored combat knows that HEAT rounds are far from the prime choice for killing tanks; HEAT is used primarily against bunkers and light armor (sabot has poor post-penetration effects against soft targets and light armor because it tends to punch a hole in one side and out the other without creating the spall produced from penetrating heavy armor).

 

Further, the TOW-2A has a 150mm tandem warhead. The US Army determined that this was inadequate for killing the more modern T72 and T80 (reactive armor or not), so they went with a top-attack system on TOW2B (hitting the armor where it's very thin). And, as mentioned above, direct fire gun systems use sabot instead of HEAT. The M1 has a superior frontal armor package to the T80, so if 150mm tandem HEAT can't defeat T80 reliably, you can be sure 125mm HEAT can't defeat M1A2 armor.

 

SO, long story short, even if the Svir/ Reflecks hits an M1, the chance of penetrating frontal armor is next to none... and in order to get the angles to get a flank shot, you're probably going to have to be a lot closer than 5000 meters, so who cares about the range advantage?

 

Yes BUT...How functional and accurate are those fancy FCS systems gonna be after taking 2 or possibly 3 hits from ATGM's before it can return fire???

[Invader ZIM]

Thanks for helping to confirm that JCamel, I appreciate it!

 

As far as the warhead of the Standard, you are right, but the point is that the missile can really mess up delicate radars and other systems topside, the real effect is that the enemy ship is overwhelmed with small missiles striking it's topside and it's defensive systems trying to figure out which targets to engage while the more capable ASM's come in. Personally, I would use aircraft launching the stealthy AGM-129A against ship targtes.

[JCamel]

Interesting to see a Type-99KM in the game.

[Invader ZIM]

Here's a video on the T-80, firing the ATGM from it's muzzle. You can skip to 2:22 in to see the demonstration, you can see how long it takes to hit a target that is relatively close to the tank, and the rather interesting signature of the missile. It flies high at first, then dives down into the laser beam.

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA8uXzxLqx0

 

 

 

At those ranges seen in the video, I would think your better off firing a Sabot round, it takes so long to get to that relatively close target. To me it seems to defeat the purpose of having a tank at all, why not just use the AT-11 on lighter and faster or more mobile vehicles instead of on a heavy tank?

 

 

1.The ATGM flies much slower than a penetrator round, and the T-80's optical system is suseptible to lighting conditions and is dependent of having clear visibilty of the enemy tank, as well as having to stay still while having to keep a narrow laser beam on a possible maneuvring enemy tank at 5km with it's visual sights alone.

 

 

2. The enemy tank popping smoke and maneuvering will not allow the T-80 to get an accurate shot off with it's laser guided AT-11, at any range.

 

 

3. Active countermeasures on U.S. Tanks and Bradley's as demonstrated in the EARLY 1990's proved capable of destroying the delicate laser and optical systems of enemy vehicles out to 8km.

 

 

4. There are few battlefields where you can use the full 5km range to any advantage, at least against an enemy tank.

 

 

5. Systems like Shtora are IR dazzlers, and won't work against an M1's SABOT round, nor against a wire guided missile like the TOW-2

 

 

6. The M1 can target and fire accurately through a smoke obscured environment or in bad weather conditions that reduce visibility in the visible light spectrum by using it's thermal gunsight and systems.

 

 

7. Here's a video of T-90 crews firing while on the move at targets that are 1500 meters away.

 

 

What is very telling is how many shots they needed to hit that target. Factor in the autoloader's average time of 8 seconds and assuming they fired immediately when the round was ready says that it took at least 24 seconds to hit one inert and non dangerous enemy tank at 1500m... With the upgraded sights of a T-90. That's an excruciationly long time in the heat of battle against real forces that want to destroy you.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Invader ZIM

[Alfa]

Methinks a bit of perhaps national pride at work?

 

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black :D

 

I don't care how slow harpoon is, the US CGs can easily ripple fire enough to overwhelm the AD on the Velikiy; VLS has a VERY rapid fire rate since there's no need for launch rails or tubes to be reloaded before the follow-on shot

 

Harpoons are not loaded in the VLS blocks, but in two separate quad-tubes on deck - each CG-47 class ship carries 8 Harpoon missiles, so two Ticonderoga's makes 16 Harpoons in total.

 

The Velikiy has three separate AD systems; Long range Rif/Fort-M VLS, medium-short range Klinok/Kinshal VLS and six Kashtan/Kortik gun/missile modules.....some two hundred ready-to-fire AD missiles of varies types and 16 gatling type guns.

 

I could possibly understand if your claim was for the reversed situation - i.e. that two Tico's could "easily" deal with ripple fired Granits of the Veliky, but that the *massive* AD suite of the Velikiy shouldn't be able to deal with 16 Harpoons...... :D

[GGTharos]

Tico's aren't really tasked with anti-ship work IIRC though. I imagine attacking the PV would be done with submarine, unless they really had to use ship-borne assets ... in which case it would be an insane slug-fest of some sort. :D

[JCamel]

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black :D

 

 

 

Harpoons are not loaded in the VLS blocks, but in two separate quad-tubes on deck - each CG-47 class ship carries 8 Harpoon missiles, so two Ticonderoga's makes 16 Harpoons in total.

 

The Velikiy has three separate AD systems; Long range Rif/Fort-M VLS, medium-short range Klinok/Kinshal VLS and six Kashtan/Kortik gun/missile modules.....some two hundred ready-to-fire AD missiles of varies types and 16 gatling type guns.

And 20 Granits.

 

I could possibly understand if your claim was for the reversed situation - i.e. that two Tico's could "easily" deal with ripple fired Granits of the Veliky, but that the *massive* AD suite of the Velikiy shouldn't be able to deal with 16 Harpoons...... :D

You are forgetting the 2x61 cells containing a mix of SAMs and BGM-109 Tomahawks but yes the Velikiy has lots SAMs and those AK630s can fire at a combined rate of 1600 rounds per second. It's a lead wall.

[JCamel]

Tico's aren't really tasked with anti-ship work IIRC though. I imagine attacking the PV would be done with submarine, unless they really had to use ship-borne assets ... in which case it would be an insane slug-fest of some sort. :D

We don't have super-cavitating torpedos either. Another Defence Budget suggestion.

[Invader ZIM]

GGTharos is right, we're sort of pitting two rather capable Air defence ships against each other. There's still something going on with the AI in our sim though.

[JCamel]

GGTharos is right, we're sort of pitting two rather capable Air defence ships against each other. There's still something going on with the AI in our sim though.

Yeah. Strange because it all worked in A-10 1.1.1.1.

[GGTharos]

Not a factor for this particular battle though ...

 

We don't have super-cavitating torpedos either. Another Defence Budget suggestion.

[Alfa]

Tico's aren't really tasked with anti-ship work IIRC though.

 

No thats the thing - the Ticonderoga class is more oriented towards AD and land attack. The main attributes of the class is the AEGIS radar and standard missiles which were derrived exactly with the aim of maximising the AD capability against saturation attacks involving supersonic ASM and SSMs - i.e. the ability to detect and designate multiple threats and engage them at range with long range missiles fired at high rate via the VLS launcher blocks(MK-41).

 

Compared to the weapon's stock for AD and land attack, the anti-ship capability is actually quite weak and seems almost like a self-defence item.

 

I imagine attacking the PV would be done with submarine, unless they really had to use ship-borne assets ... in which case it would be an insane slug-fest of some sort. :D

 

Even submarines would have a hard time GG - the PV is extremely well equipped for ASW(monster sonar suite, ASW missiles, torpedoes, automated ASW morters and ASW helicopters). I think if you have to pick a single approach the best bet would be air raids, but obviously a coordianted effort would have a higher liklihood of success.

 

But returning to a direct encounter - I don't believe for one second that a couple of Tico's would stand much of a chance of "taking down" a Kirov class on their own - they may well be capable of defending themselves against it(since this was the type of thing they were designed to do), but "overwhelming its ADs" with a few Harpoons......no way :D .

[GGTharos]

Compared to the weapon's stock for AD and land attack, the anti-ship capability is actually quite weak and seems almost like a self-defence item.

 

Agreed; at least against the PV. There are some Iranian frigates that didn't deal so well with Haproons.

 

Even submarines would have a hard time GG - the PV is extremely well equipped for ASW(monster sonar suite, ASW missiles, torpedoes, automated ASW morters and ASW helicopters).

I had completely forgotten that.

 

But returning to a direct encounter - I don't believe for one second that a couple of Tico's would stand much of a chance of "taking down" a Kirov class on their own - they may well be capable of defending themselves against it(since this was the type of thing they were designed to do), but "overwhelming its ADs" with a few Harpoons......no way :D .

I think what might be interesting, if we were to considered a really forced encounter here, and they both defended successfuly against each other's SSMs, is that I believe that most if not all ship-borne AD missiles also have an SSM mode. That's not counting the guns :D

[Alfa]

And 20 Granits.

 

Yes of course, but the poster talked about the ability of the Ticonderoga class to "overwhelm" the air defences of the PV - not the other way around :)

 

You are forgetting the 2x61 cells containing a mix of SAMs and BGM-109 Tomahawks..

 

As far as I am aware the anti-ship variant(BGM-109B TASM) is actually no longer in the inventory - only land-attack(TLAM) versions.

 

but yes the Velikiy has lots SAMs and those AK630s can fire at a combined rate of 1600 rounds per second. It's a lead wall.

 

Eh not quite - the firing rate of an AK-630 is ~ 4000-5000 rounds a minute. Only the two first units of the Kirov class(Ushakov and Lazarev) have AK-630s, while the two last units(Nakhimov and Pyotr Velikiy) have Kashtan combat modules instead - since these each have two such guns, the combined firing rate would be double that of an AK-630 mount.

[Alfa]

There are some Iranian frigates that didn't deal so well with Haproons.

 

Nothing wrong with the Harpoon - its a great missile and for what its worth I am not even sure that the basic Rif/Fort system would be all that effective against it - i.e. a small sea-skimming target hard to spot at range.

 

But exactly the PV has the new Rif-M system, which apart from having a new radar, was modified to handle "layered defence" - i.e. in addition to the long range missiles it also has smaller medium and short range missiles....and of course the dedicated short range AD(Klinok and Kashtan) is *very* dense.

 

I think what might be interesting, if we were to considered a really forced encounter here, and they both defended successfuly against each other's SSMs, is that I believe that most if not all ship-borne AD missiles also have an SSM mode.

 

Yes most long- and medium range SAMs do.

 

That's not counting the guns :D

 

Heh yeah - but then again the PV would have the advantage with that AK-130 monster :D

[HiJack]

What ever happend to the tread about the M1 agains the T-80?