shu77 Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 I knew this would be of great interest to the members of this forum, especially given the development of the F-22 by IRIS. http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/07/f-22-germans/ I love the title of this article "Yesterday we had a Raptor Salad for Lunch" http://theaviationist.com/2012/07/13/fia12-typhoon-raptor/ Hornet, Super Carrier, Warthog & (II), Mustang, Spitfire, Albatross, Sabre, Combined Arms, FC3, Nevada, Gulf, Normandy, Syria AH-6J i9 10900K @ 5.0GHz, Gigabyte Z490 Vision G, Cooler Master ML120L, Gigabyte RTX3080 OC Gaming 10Gb, 64GB RAM, Reverb G2 @ 2480x2428, TM Warthog, Saitek pedals & throttle, DIY collective, TrackIR4, Cougar MFDs, vx3276-2k Combat Wombat's Airfield & Enroute Maps and Planning Tools
GGTharos Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 Oh man, not this again. Here's the real answer you're looking for: "Ask the Raptors to play fair". That's all there is to it :) (BTW, in case you are in fact wondering, these 1v1 encounters ended up with Tiffy's dying a-plenty. Apparently they ended up about even). [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
shu77 Posted July 31, 2012 Author Posted July 31, 2012 Well I cant say I really have a dog in this fight, I just thought it was an great article. I also like to think its more a case of using the ROE to your advantage than asking the opposition to play fair (*cough* which is why we perhaps see so many tanks being parked in the middle of primary schools and similar in current operational theatres). I recall there was an instance of Lock On being used by an Eastern Bloc air force to identify a tactic against perhaps the Mig-29 that was successfully validated in real life? (Hoping someone has a link or a reference to this) I think it will be quite interesting to see if this tactic works when we have both aircraft represented in DCS. Hornet, Super Carrier, Warthog & (II), Mustang, Spitfire, Albatross, Sabre, Combined Arms, FC3, Nevada, Gulf, Normandy, Syria AH-6J i9 10900K @ 5.0GHz, Gigabyte Z490 Vision G, Cooler Master ML120L, Gigabyte RTX3080 OC Gaming 10Gb, 64GB RAM, Reverb G2 @ 2480x2428, TM Warthog, Saitek pedals & throttle, DIY collective, TrackIR4, Cougar MFDs, vx3276-2k Combat Wombat's Airfield & Enroute Maps and Planning Tools
GGTharos Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 It's asking to play fair. Even if a Raptor has to VID you, it doesn't mean you'll know it's coming, or where it's coming from. In the 1v1's, you know where he is to begin with. Well I cant say I really have a dog in this fight, I just thought it was an great article. I also like to think its more a case of using the ROE to your advantage than asking the opposition to play fair (*cough* which is why we perhaps see so many tanks being parked in the middle of primary schools and similar in current operational theatres). Which tactic would that be? I recall there was an instance of Lock On being used by an Eastern Bloc air force to identify a tactic against perhaps the Mig-29 that was successfully validated in real life? (Hoping someone has a link or a reference to this) I think it will be quite interesting to see if this tactic works when we have both aircraft represented in DCS. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Cali Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 Oh man, not this again. Here's the real answer you're looking for: "Ask the Raptors to play fair". That's all there is to it :) (BTW, in case you are in fact wondering, these 1v1 encounters ended up with Tiffy's dying a-plenty. Apparently they ended up about even). I agree, I've seen this on 3 other forums. Little do these people know and understand what is really going on. I'm not saying the F-22 can't be beat, it happens to them all.....nothing is perfect. i7-4820k @ 3.7, Windows 7 64-bit, 16GB 1866mhz EVGA GTX 970 2GB, 256GB SSD, 500GB WD, TM Warthog, TM Cougar MFD's, Saitek Combat Pedals, TrackIR 5, G15 keyboard, 55" 4K LED
mvsgas Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) How to get everyone in a forums? Say Item A is better than item B. Thread will devolve into an argument soon. I predict one person will say missile C is better than D Car E is better than F This video card is better than that one And Batman is better than Spiderman... :doh: Edited August 1, 2012 by mvsgas 1 To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
cichlidfan Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 How to troll a forums? Say Item A is better than item B. Thread will devolve into an argument soon. I predict one person will say missile C is better than D Car E is better than F This video card is better than that one And Batman is better than Spiderman... :doh: You forgot 'My mom can beat up your mom!' :lol: ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1 :thumbup:
mvsgas Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 You forgot 'My mom can beat up your mom!' :lol: To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
Neptune Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) How to get everyone in a forums? Say Item A is better than item B. Thread will devolve into an argument soon. I predict one person will say missile C is better than D Car E is better than F This video card is better than that one And Batman is better than Spiderman... :doh: But batman IS better then Spiderman...:D Edited August 1, 2012 by Neptune 1 I7 2600k 4.5ghz / 8gb Corsair Vengeance / CFX x2 Sapphire 6850 / OCZ 60gb SSD / Kingston Hyper X 120gb ssd / 500gb Barracuda / Corsair H80 / Saitek X 52 / Ps3 eye facetracknoir
PeterP Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 Geez ! This thread is clearly missing a poll !! Than there would be no room for speculation and arguments.:)
Vekkinho Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 Well, the report clearly says what everybody who dared to admit already knew. F-22 is a BVR aircraft, it's pilots should maintain and extend back to BVR as much as they can 'cause merging into WVR turn fights is where Raptor's advantages bleak. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Pougatchev Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 Impossible, when f-22 is shooting you haven't found it yet xD /
Cali Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 Well, the report clearly says what everybody who dared to admit already knew. F-22 is a BVR aircraft, it's pilots should maintain and extend back to BVR as much as they can 'cause merging into WVR turn fights is where Raptor's advantages bleak. Red flag is a set up engagement, just like in FC2. You have everything set up and anyone can win. There have been times in multiplayer that I was surprised by someone or surprised them and the results vary. It's way different they knowing where the guy is, what fuel load he has, has or has no external stores. The Raptor is a big aircraft and it's still nimble for it's size. 1 i7-4820k @ 3.7, Windows 7 64-bit, 16GB 1866mhz EVGA GTX 970 2GB, 256GB SSD, 500GB WD, TM Warthog, TM Cougar MFD's, Saitek Combat Pedals, TrackIR 5, G15 keyboard, 55" 4K LED
GGTharos Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 I don't know about that; it's been kicking the snot out of F-16's. The Raptor's biggest advantage is indeed SA in BVR and denial of SA in BVR to the enemy. It lacks some things for the WVR fight (helmet sight, HOBS missiles), but it still has plenty of maneuverability and it can enter the WVR fight in an advantageous position (because you don't know it's coming). Generally speaking you don't buy the merge no matter what you're flying unless you have some sort of superiority (numerical especially, then position), because dogfights are crap-shoots. As much as you can try to control them, SA while in a dogfight diminishes and anything can happen. Well, the report clearly says what everybody who dared to admit already knew. F-22 is a BVR aircraft, it's pilots should maintain and extend back to BVR as much as they can 'cause merging into WVR turn fights is where Raptor's advantages bleak. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Hellfire257 Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 I love how some people just cannot accept that the F-22 is not invincible.
GGTharos Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 I love how some people want drop the above straw-man-makes-me-sound-wise-without-saying-anything-at-all into the conversation :D 1 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
VAOZoky Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 Designers of A10 and F16 repeatedly have said that stealth in F22 and F35 is a lie. So according to them F22 is nothing more then 400+ million $ lie Intel Core i5 2500k @ 4.2Ghz, 8GB Kingston HyperX @1.6GHz, Ati Radeon HD7870 2GB GDDR5, 19' 1440x900 screen
wilky510 Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 I love how some people just cannot accept that the F-22 is not invincible. Noone in this thread from what i've seen said that it was. Mostly people are saying Red flag isn't a place to brag about winning engagements. It's training, as most training.. it's set up. Some other info on this: Tiffys were slicked off/cleaned as much as possible. Some speculate that the F-22's were carrying fuels tanks to hide RCS (they did in past exercises for this reason). F-22 by far isn't invincible and what makes the F-22 a unique aircraft is it's ability in the BVR regime which for some reason USAF doesn't like showing off in exercises (maybe to hide tactics?) Instead of asking the question to why people can't accept the F-22 not being invincible, why do other countries go out of their way to write articles making the F-22 look like an inferior aircraft to 4.5 generation aircraft?
GGTharos Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 ... and they've been shown to not only be wrong, but to be sadly and sorely out of touch with modern air combat and technology as a result of their ill-informed rants. Stealth technology has already been proven in combat. Designers of A10 and F16 repeatedly have said that stealth in F22 and F35 is a lie. So according to them F22 is nothing more then 400+ million $ lie [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Cali Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 Noone in this thread from what i've seen said that it was. Mostly people are saying Red flag isn't a place to brag about winning engagements. It's training, as most training.. it's set up. Some other info on this: Tiffys were slicked off/cleaned as much as possible. Some speculate that the F-22's were carrying fuels tanks to hide RCS (they did in past exercises for this reason). Are you saying the F-22's where carrying external fuel tanks to be stealthy? :huh: i7-4820k @ 3.7, Windows 7 64-bit, 16GB 1866mhz EVGA GTX 970 2GB, 256GB SSD, 500GB WD, TM Warthog, TM Cougar MFD's, Saitek Combat Pedals, TrackIR 5, G15 keyboard, 55" 4K LED
GGTharos Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 He's saying they were carrying them to not be stealthy - ie. to keep anyone from knowing their real RCS. But really they could just attach their nut sacks for that purpose :D [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
mvsgas Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 Designers of A10 and F16 repeatedly have said that stealth in F22 and F35 is a lie. So according to them F22 is nothing more then 400+ million $ lie Do not confuse the "Fighter Mafia" guys ( Pierre Sprey specifically since he is the only one that has voiced disapproval of stealth) that created the requirements for the A-10 and F-16 with the designers, aerodynamic engineers. F-16=Harry Hillaker A-10= William Curtis III To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
GGTharos Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 You have to wonder why the Fighter Mafia forgot about SA etc ... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
mvsgas Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 They didn't, Only Sprey has said anything publicly. I do not think is is the "Fighter mafia" all by himself. To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
GGTharos Posted August 1, 2012 Posted August 1, 2012 Good point :P I figure the F-22 wouldn't be what it is without some Fighter Mafia influence. Heck, maybe it wouldn't even have had a gun :D [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
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