Ракеты в DCS

[FoxAlfa]

Since we are talking missiles and active projects, can this atleast be fixed? People are exploting it and it is hurting SARH servers....

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/260341-aim-7-is-arh-in-multiplayer/?tab=comments#comment-4554516

[Chizh]

1 час назад, TotenDead сказал:

Летчик ВВС США говорил, что у Р-27ЭР больше дальность, чем у амраама, а не то, что ракета за 60 секунд улетает дальше. Не может же американец врать, верно?)

На высотах ведения ближних боев, ниже 5000 метров, дальность (отлет) ракеты Р-27ЭР превосходит отлет ракеты AIM-120C.

В текущей открытой бете я провел несколько пусков ракет Р-27ЭР и AIM-120C по прямой, без лофтовой траектории, без цели, на высоте 2000 и скорости 700 км/ч. Окончанием полета ракеты считается момент, когда скорость ракеты сравнивается со скоростью носителя, то есть уменьшается до 700 км/ч.

 

Отлет ракет от носителя следующий:

Р-27ЭР = 13,75 км.

AIM-120C = 12.37 км. 

 

 

 

[sylkhan]

"The R-27R (R-27ER) can be fire before target lock-on is achieved.
In this case the missile receives mid-course guidance via a special link system to compensate for the target's movement until it comes within lock-on range.
The mid-course correction feature increase the effective "kill range" by some 20 km in pursuit mode and 60 km in head on mode."

 

Do we have this feature in DCS ?

Edited January 29, 2021 by sylkhan

[Chizh]

2 часа назад, Москва сказал:

реальность дкс и реальность в жизни как-то не стыкуются ! зачем индии закупать убогие р-27 причём не малой партией против потенциальных противников имеющих аим-120с7 и пл-10 да ещё рисковать попасть под санкции самой чесной демократии. дикие люди оторванные от реала и логики. 

Вероятно потому что они дешевле чем РВВ-АЕ.

[dundun92]

18 minutes ago, sylkhan said:

"The R-27R (R-27ER) can be fire before target lock-on is achieved.
In this case the missile receives mid-course guidance via a special link system to compensate for the target's movement until it comes within lock-on range.
The mid-course correction feature increase the effective "kill range" by some 20 km in pursuit mode and 60 km in head on mode."

 

Do we have this feature in DCS ?

 

Yes and no. Yes in the sense that we can launch outside of seeker range, what the radio correction is there, no in the sense that its not modeled properly. In DCS AFAIK it just models SARH as having infinite range seekers, rather than limited range seekers and a distinct radio correction phase. So for practical purposes it is modeled, just not technically correct.

[Max1mus]

44 minutes ago, Chizh said:

На высотах ведения ближних боев, ниже 5000 метров, дальность (отлет) ракеты Р-27ЭР превосходит отлет ракеты AIM-120C.

В текущей открытой бете я провел несколько пусков ракет Р-27ЭР и AIM-120C по прямой, без лофтовой траектории, без цели, на высоте 2000 и скорости 700 км/ч. Окончанием полета ракеты считается момент, когда скорость ракеты сравнивается со скоростью носителя, то есть уменьшается до 700 км/ч.

 

Отлет ракет от носителя следующий:

Р-27ЭР = 13,75 км.

AIM-120C = 12.37 км. 

 

 

 

Without loft. With loft, 120C overtakes R-27ER well before the 60s mark as my screenshot above shows. Why are you lying and showing straightline AMRAAM?

[Chizh]

22 минуты назад, Max1mus сказал:

Without loft. With loft, 120C overtakes R-27ER well before the 60s mark as my screenshot above shows. Why are you lying and showing straightline AMRAAM?

I showed the energy capabilities of the missiles. The benefit gained from trajectory optimization is another matter.

 

Once again, if you have specific information and numbers, let's talk. Your personal impressions of the missiles don't interest me.

[TotenDead]

34 минуты назад, Chizh сказал:

I showed the energy capabilities of the missiles. The benefit gained from trajectory optimization is another matter.

 

Once again, if you have specific information and numbers, let's talk. Your personal impressions of the missiles don't interest me.

У нас есть заявления лётчиков ВВС США, в которых говорится, что дальность аим-120 не превышает дальность Р-27ЭР. Следовательно с лофтом, без лофта - все равно. Если бы у лётчиков США были бы амраамы с дальностью большей, чем Р-27ЭР, они бы в видео так и сказали: "У нас есть превосходство в дальности пуска". Они же говорят обратное, при чем выделяют, что из-за разницы в дальности им приходится выдумывать всякие тактики, чтобы долететь до зоны пуска своих ракет. Из всего этого мы делаем простой и очевидный вывод - амраам не обладает дальностью р-27ЭР, а за 85 секунд жизни батареи он не способен ни по каким траекториям покрыть расстояние, которое проходит Р-27ЭР за 60 секунд. 

Edited January 29, 2021 by TotenDead

[Москва]

1 час назад, Chizh сказал:

Вероятно потому что они дешевле чем РВВ-АЕ.

но согласитесь, это глупо делать основным истребителем машину, за более чем 70000000дол и оснащять её оружием в реалиях дкс не способным вести двб против потенциальных противников.  

[Москва]

3 часа назад, Kachubey сказал:

Ну опять таки, сомневаюсь, что те данные которые есть у Индии - есть в свободном доступе.

А создавать ракеты на догадках и спекуляциях еще хуже, чем то что есть

догадок не надо, я с вами согласен.но после закупок ракет р-27 украинского производства, индийцы остались ими не довольны. и заключили контракт на российские р-27. причём со складов боевого хранения. причём до этого они закупили 300 рвв-ае и 400 р-73э. больше всего меня удивляет, не закупка р-27, а закупка р-73 .так как в реалиях дкс выход на их дистанцию применения, это уже редкость. если  против ф-16 и 18 с аим-120с5. 

[Max1mus]

13 hours ago, Chizh said:

I showed the energy capabilities of the missiles. The benefit gained from trajectory optimization is another matter.

 

Once again, if you have specific information and numbers, let's talk. Your personal impressions of the missiles don't interest me.

Do you have an explanation why the pilots say "R-27ER outranges AMRAAM" when the DCS AMRAAM outranges it instead? I dont hear them say "within 60s without lofting".

To show the specific information and numbers more clearly, i collected the evidence i posted here in the last 2 days all together (including the tracks that now have labels):

 

Spoiler

On 1/27/2021 at 9:11 PM, Max1mus said:

Minute 3:19. "Longer range Weapons".

In DCS, the AIM-120C at 50.7 miles arrives at Mach 2.6+ and destroys the target. The R-27ER fired at around 46 Miles from higher altitude and much more speed bleeds to less than mach 2 and falls out of the sky a good 10 miles short of the target.

How are people supposed to recreate real NATO doctrine and AMRAAM tactics when the number one reason for them, the range relationship between R-27 and AMRAAM, is flipped???

Do you plan on allowing people to use AMRAAM tactics to their advantage? Or still no R-27 rework until "all projects, including MiG-29A and Apache are finished"?

Incorrect_Range_Relationship.trk 73.7 kB · 3 downloads Incorrect_Range_Relationship_2.trk 74.18 kB · 3 downloads

 

 

On 1/28/2021 at 11:24 AM, Max1mus said:

 
3:40 - "R-27ER outranges our AMRAAM missiles, we will beat them by using better tactics and getting closer to shoot"

In these tracks an AIM-120B and R-27ER are fired at 82km. The ER is launched from way more altitude and speed.

Yet the AIM-120B impacts at mach 2.5+, while R-27ER falls out of the sky and passes at Mach 1.5.ERdoesnotoutrange.trk120Bnotoutranged.trk



Which AMRAAM missiles and R-27ER is the pilot talking about? Certainly not the DCS ones. Can we please have this fixed? This affects the singleplayer/coop F-18/F-16 community more than anyone.

 

 

On 1/28/2021 at 11:03 PM, Max1mus said:

The AMRAAM lofts and will not just stop flying at 60s.

In my now attached track you can see an AIM-120C by far exceed the flyout range for the R-27ER (by 10+km/35%+) without battery life factored in. On top of that my F-15 has sped up to almost mach 2 by the end, so the real value is even higher in favor of AIM-120C.

AIM-120C without battery life would have hit that target at 131km with mach 2.6 left (and as i have proven to you before with tracks, it can reach targets as far away as 180-200km easily). Current DCS R-27ER launched at 131km would not even have come close, as you can see in that track.

This clearly proves that R-27ER can never outrange AIM-120 in DCS at high altitude. Despite every pilot that has talked about that range relationship claiming that it should.

I note that the relationship was as the pilots describe it before DCS 2.5.5. Because back then both AIM-120 and R-27 were modelled to the same standard. Now one has a CFD research based modelling, and one has a 5 year old model.

Given all this and that the AMRAAM was reworked over a year ago now, why are there no plans for the R-27 rework now? If for political reasons, youre worried that russian fighters will dominate in your sim, you shouldnt be. The soviet fighters in DCS are still so far behind your new F-18 and F-16 in terms of technology, that you can still easily trash N001 radar locks by cranking at long range and turning cold and recommitting fast at medium range. Add to that Link16, and missing datalink features on Su-27 and MiG-29, and you will find that even an R-27ER with no zero lift drag will still not allow the red planes to compete against AIM-120Cs. And given that there are no plans to ever add modern russian planes, this will never change. But this rework will at least give the NATO guys a slightly more interesting BVR environment and allow Su-27 owners to at the very least beat the singleplayer campaigns without having to abuse AI weaknesses like a speedrunner.

120Cflyoutfurther.trk 55.6 kB · 3 downloads

PS: It is clear that you know of these problems given that EDs "Hard" F-15C Instant Action mission over Syria includes MiG-31s, whose R-33 have not been reworked since FC2 and are significantly overperforming, outranging even MK60 Phoenixes by far while also having a massive acceleration. The state of russian planes and missiles in DCS is so catastrophic that you decided to add a broken AI plane to give the player any challenge whatsoever.

 

On 1/29/2021 at 9:10 AM, Max1mus said:

Ok, lets for some reason assume the AMRAAM only flies for 60 seconds.60s_1.trk60s_2.trk


AIM-120 still out-ranges the R-27ER at 60s, passing it at around the 45s mark. Tracks are attached.

Is this not enough to make this rework a high priority? The few soviet AI planes that you offer as opposition for your F-18/F-16 customers rely on the R-27, but as you can see the way it is modelled now, you dont need to do anything as an AIM-120 user. No need to crank, dive, defend, or execute any of the timeline/MAR-related tactics from real life.

 

20 hours ago, Max1mus said:

 

I added labels to them. Here they are from my first post:
ERdoesnotoutrange_LABELS.trk120Bnotoutranged_LABELS.trk

Second post:
120Cflyoutfurther_LABELS.trk

Third post:
60s_1_LABELS.trk60s_2_LABELS.trk

PS: I forgot to add the tracks from my very first out of 4 posts, here they are:
Incorrect_Range_Relationship_2_LABELS.trkIncorrect_Range_Relationship_LABELS.trk

 

 

PS: I removed the part about terminal speed

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Max1mus

[Stoikiy]

Я официально заявляю, я хочу такие же плюшки как на технике нато!!!

@Chizh я же писал сюда 3 раза что у хорнета \ F16  ракеты следят и ведут цель через горы. А вы ответили что ложь
Никогда такого не было и вот опять... (с)

P.S Расчёты в процессе. Как договорились, я не забыл.

[Max1mus]

14 hours ago, sylkhan said:

"The R-27R (R-27ER) can be fire before target lock-on is achieved.
In this case the missile receives mid-course guidance via a special link system to compensate for the target's movement until it comes within lock-on range.
The mid-course correction feature increase the effective "kill range" by some 20 km in pursuit mode and 60 km in head on mode."

 

Do we have this feature in DCS ?

 

 

This is an indication that R-27 range up high is indeed limited by radar and not by energy.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Max1mus

[GGTharos]

There are two independent CFDs supporting the current AMRAAM performance.   What will happen if the R-27 CFD does not support what those pilots are saying?

[Max1mus]

More evidence, a discussion between 2 apparent real US pilots. One of them mentions how R-27ER range advantage over AIM-120B was all they talked about back then and how they were "more sanguine about AIM-120C" https://forums.mudspike.com/t/sim-vs-reality-tactics/7803/41

 

I remind that even DCS AIM-120B outranges the DCS R-27ER.

[Max1mus]

On 8/26/2020 at 3:52 PM, Маэстро said:

 

They did't. In DCS For Vf=Vt=500m/s range is 61km w/o loft. Terminal condition is Vm=Vt.

The above is what ED answered, when asked why the missile can hit way beyond what the graph shows (the green and red DCS marks).




ED says Vm=Vt is the missile speed as it arrives at the target. But thats not what the graph says, it says that that number is the "flight speed of the fighter".

I dont understand.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Max1mus

[Chizh]

15 часов назад, Stoikiy сказал:

Я официально заявляю, я хочу такие же плюшки как на технике нато!!!

@Chizh я же писал сюда 3 раза что у хорнета \ F16  ракеты следят и ведут цель через горы. А вы ответили что ложь
Никогда такого не было и вот опять... (с)

P.S Расчёты в процессе. Как договорились, я не забыл.

Трек?

 

16 часов назад, Москва сказал:

догадок не надо, я с вами согласен.но после закупок ракет р-27 украинского производства, индийцы остались ими не довольны. и заключили контракт на российские р-27. причём со складов боевого хранения. 

Пруф или это ваши фантазии?

 

3 часа назад, Max1mus сказал:

The above is what ED answered, when asked why the missile can hit way beyond what the graph shows (the green and red DCS marks).




ED says Vf=Vt is the missile speed as it arrives at the target. But thats not what the graph says, it says that that number is the "flight speed of the fighter".

I dont understand.

 

It is my document MiG-29 and It is a AIM-120A.

[Chizh]

17 часов назад, TotenDead сказал:

У нас есть заявления лётчиков ВВС США, в которых говорится, что дальность аим-120 не превышает дальность Р-27ЭР. Следовательно с лофтом, без лофта - все равно.

Нет. У вас есть одно упоминание отставного летчика, без конкретики о типах ракет.

У нас есть расчет тяги и аэродинамики AIM-120, а также свои SME.

 

Цитата

Если бы у лётчиков США были бы амраамы с дальностью большей, чем Р-27ЭР, они бы в видео так и сказали: "У нас есть превосходство в дальности пуска". Они же говорят обратное, при чем выделяют, что из-за разницы в дальности им приходится выдумывать всякие тактики, чтобы долететь до зоны пуска своих ракет.

Не стоит из слов одного отставного пилота, который, не участвовал в учениях, говорил без конкретики и указания типов ракет, делать какие-либо выводы.

Он просто ошибся.

[Stoikiy]

8 минут назад, Chizh сказал:

Трек?

 

Так видео то не моё. Там же есть в видео визуализация Tacview

[GGTharos]

5 hours ago, Max1mus said:

More evidence, a discussion between 2 apparent real US pilots. One of them mentions how R-27ER range advantage over AIM-120B was all they talked about back then and how they were "more sanguine about AIM-120C" https://forums.mudspike.com/t/sim-vs-reality-tactics/7803/41

 

I remind that even DCS AIM-120B outranges the DCS R-27ER.

 

I like this quote from that thread:

 

 

Quote

 

Fun story, unlike most of the online community I actually think the R27ER is the best missile kinematically in DCS right now due to the short range nature of most engagements and the ridiculous speed that that missile has at short range. If you stay high (above 10,000 feet/2-3000 meters) you can absolutely trade shots with an amraam shooter and come out on top inside 10 miles. Oh and it has a greater stern wez than the amraam does as well.

 

The trick is to get yourself inside 10 miles (15 km) hopefully un targeted.

 

This is all before you get into the chaff rejection of the 27ER in DCS (terrible) SARH limitations (he notches you its defeated) and the issues with netcode (if he warps at any point in its TOF its probably defeated) which can make it a real pain to fight with, but I honestly prefer it over just about any other russian missile for BVR in DCS.

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by GGTharos

[Chizh]

6 минут назад, Stoikiy сказал:

 

Так видео то не моё. Там же есть в видео визуализация Tacview

Дебажить возможно только треки.

[GGTharos]

16 hours ago, TotenDead said:

We have statements from the US Air Force pilots, which say that the range of the AIM-120 does not exceed the range of the R-27ER. Therefore, with a loft, without a loft - all the same. If the US pilots had Amraams with a range greater than the R-27ER, they would have said in the video: "We have superiority in launch range." They say the opposite, and point out that due to the difference in range, they have to invent all sorts of tactics in order to reach the launch zone of their missiles. From all this, we draw a simple and obvious conclusion - amraam does not have a range of r-27ER, and in 85 seconds of battery life, it is not capable of covering the distance traveled by R-27ER in 60 seconds along any paths. 

 

There are also timeline tactics available in manuals - and although they are unclass (though I'm not sure you'll be able to find the manuals), those timelines don't support the idea that the R-27ER out-ranges the 120.   Such details are hidden in the vault, but again - the basic unclass stuff that you can find has AMRAAM shots being taken at 20nm subsonic and medium altitude - and that little details is in individual aircraft manuals and in tactics manuals.   This equates to a range of about 36km, between 6000-8000m and I doubt that it's a low pk shot.

 

Now if you consider that the R-27ER Rmax at those ranges is between 45 and 55km, do you believe they'll be taking shots much before that 36km vs maneuverable targets?

[sylkhan]

14 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

Now if you consider that the R-27ER Rmax at those ranges is between 45 and 55km, do you believe they'll be taking shots much before that 36km vs maneuverable targets?

Lol, the R-27ER has a lot more range, at 6000/8000 m, subsonic.

The R-27R has rmax 50 Km at those range, if fire with lock-on, w/o lock-on it can  be launch at even greater distance (like i explained previously).

Now you can extrapolate for R-27ER.

 

[GGTharos]

31 minutes ago, sylkhan said:

Lol, the R-27ER has a lot more range, at 6000/8000 m, subsonic.

The R-27R has rmax 50 Km at those range, if fire with lock-on, w/o lock-on it can  be launch at even greater distance (like i explained previously).

Now you can extrapolate for R-27ER.

 

I don't have to extrapolate for anything.  These are from the manuals for using these missiles, and they correspond with DLZs seen on HuDs in videos as well.  

 

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by GGTharos

[Chizh]

38 минут назад, sylkhan сказал:

Lol, the R-27ER has a lot more range, at 6000/8000 m, subsonic.

The R-27R has rmax 50 Km at those range, if fire with lock-on, w/o lock-on it can  be launch at even greater distance (like i explained previously).

Now you can extrapolate for R-27ER.

What you mean in with lock-on, w/o lock-on?