Ракеты в DCS

[Rush_]

I dedicate this information to the developers!

 

R 27 Missile Family

 

In the mid-1970s, OKB Vympel focused on the development of third-generation anti-aircraft missiles R-27, R-33 and R-73. All these advanced projects have become the successor generation in the destruction of air targets and have shown new interesting design solutions. The R-27 (Izdělije 470) medium-range range is generationally comparable to the American AIM-7M Sparrow, while surpassing it in many respects. R-27 can attack bombers, fighters, helicopters and missiles with a flat flight path, flying at an altitude of 20 m to 25 km (30 km for R-27E versions), at speeds up to 3600 km / h and overloading a maximum of 8g in close maneuver combat on minimum distance 500 m. Maximum range 50-170 km (depending on version) on weakly maneuvering targets at high altitudes (> 10 km) is limited by the performance of the aircraft-carrier radar equipment, which must track the target at this distance and transmit missile data. The R-27 allows you to attack low-flying targets against the background of the ground or water under any conditions. The probability of being shot down by a single shot is 0.6 to 0.8. The structure consists of a cylindrical hull and twelve axially symmetrical, cross-arranged surfaces of a duck configuration. The first four on the bow are firm and passively balance stability when using another guide head. Behind them are control surfaces of original construction (so-called butterfly), each with its own hydraulics, which are used to rotate around all three axes. At the stern of the fuselage are then large bearing surfaces. For all versions, the same rod warhead weighing 39 kg is initiated by a contactless radar (for R, T versions) or laser igniter (newer versions). The R-27EM has a modified lighter, reportedly improving efficiency against low-flying targets. The R-27 is designed modularly, which has resulted in many versions with different guidance heads and drive units, often with unique features. The first missile of this type in service is the 1986 R-27R (Alamo-A) with semi-active radar guidance used. Before its launch, the pilot follows the commands of the radar set RLPK-27 for Su-27 and RLPK-29 for MiG-29. The missile can be fired from the APU-470 (aviacionnaja puskovaja ustavka) or catapulted from the AKU-470 (aviacionnaja katapultnaja ustavka). After launch, it is inertially guided along the program path with or without radio correction. Approximately 30 km from the target, the Agat 9B-1101K guidance head enters the semi-active guidance phase. The missile can fly on a special trajectory, favorable for the work of the homing head and contactless igniter, it also has the ability to avoid the means of passive interference. Simultaneously with the R-27R, an infrared-guided R-27T (Alamo-B) with a 36T warhead and a passive radar R-27P (passive) were created, usable against targets with electromagnetic radiation - especially AWACS aircraft and ground-based radars. Improved missiles of the R-27E series (energetičnaja) were created for the Su-27 aircraft, where by increasing the diameter of the rear part and lengthening the fuselage, the fuel supply almost doubled. R-27E, introduced into service in 1990, was re-created in two variants - R-27RE (R-27R1E, Alamo-C) with semi-active radar and R-27RE (R-27T1E, Alamo-D) with a more advanced version of the infrared search engine , able to work with the pilot 's sight of the pilot. In 1992, Russia announced that it had two new versions. For MiG-29M (MiG-33) and Su-27M (Su-35/37) designed R-27AE with an active radar warhead 9B-1103M, almost identical to the 9B-1348 warhead of the R-77, which qualitatively shifts it by a large a step forward from previous versions. In the second case, it is a semi-active radar R-27EM designed specifically for the Su-27M (Su-35/37).

 

R 77 Missile

 

The missile can be fired from a wide range of altitudes from 200 to 30,000 meters to targets flying at an altitude of 20 to 30,000 meters, while the height difference between the aircraft-carrier and the target should not exceed 10 km. According to Vympel's chief designer, Gennady Sokolovsky, the R-77 missile (he himself does not like this designation, prefers RVV-AE) can be used against a very wide range of air targets - from the smallest unmanned (eg AIM-54, AIM-120, Patriot, surface-to-air missiles and even precision-guided munitions), through fast fighters and helicopters (even in suspension) to large targets such as strategic bombers and AWACS aircraft. The maximum theoretical range of a missile in a support flight is 90 to 100 km. Against a non-maneuvering target at high altitude in the front hemisphere, the range is 75 km. The range also depends on the type of aircraft, resp. its radio equipment. This case applies to the Su-35 aircraft and depends on both the range of the PLC and the range of the radar and the power of the device for data transfer from the aircraft to the missile, the so-called data line (the distance to which data can be transferred is about 50 km). Reach for a low-flying air target, ie. when the interference factor enters the Earth, it is reduced to about 25 km. However, this is true under ideal conditions. On the contrary, the minimum firing distance depends on the reaction ability of the guidance system and limiting maneuverability, respectively. "agility" PLŘS. The R-77 is 500 meters in the front hemisphere and 300 meters in the rear hemisphere. The R-77 missile reaches a flight speed exceeding M = 3 and allows you to reach the target flying at speeds of up to 3700 km / h. Especially in close maneuver air combat, other advantages apply, such as the maximum allowed overload of 45g, which allows hitting the target, maneuvering up to an overload of 12g. The guidance method is the same as for AMRAAM. The "PAL" command is followed by switching the burning of electrical systems to its own autonomous source, loading the necessary parameters of the target and the aircraft-carrier into the memory of the on-board computer and leaving the aircraft. In the initial phase of flight, the principle of inertia guidance is in the middle part with data recovery from the aircraft. and in the final phase (about 20 km from the target with an effective reflecting area of 5 m2) active radar. If the target is lost during the flight, the on-board computer of the missile retains its parameters for possible re-aiming. At short distances (the mentioned 20 km) the projectile can be launched in the active mode of self-guidance with full application of the principle of "shoot and forget". The active multi-purpose mono-pulse Doppler radar guidance system operates in the frequency band from 10 to 20 GHz. Its field of view is 12 degrees. One of the biggest advantages is the ability to guide the jammer to the aircraft. The paradox is that the original and classical method of active protection of the aircraft, consisting in the use of an active jammer to confuse the guidance radar or guidance system PLŘS becomes for it a powerful and reliable beacon, to the source of radiation is guided in a passive way. If the jammer is switched off at this stage, the PLC computer controls the switching of the guidance system to the active mode. The passive guidance method can also be used to destroy ground radars. In any firing mode, the method of approaching the target is proportional. The missile is equipped with four antennas of an active radar non-contact approach igniter (alternatively it can be equipped with an active laser approach igniter), which initiates the combat part at the optimal distance from the target depending on its size. Of course, the use of a contact lighter in case of failure of the remote lighter or when shooting at a ground target. The mechanical lighter itself is unlocked at a safe distance from the aircraft carrier - 150 to 300 meters. The highly explosive combat part weighing 30 kg has a core with a directed shard effect. The special design of the warhead with the so-called microcumulative elements increases its effectiveness against very small targets (PLŘS, etc.). The fuselage and wings are in white, control grilles are in natural metal, black inscriptions. Models of R-77 missiles are usually all red (except for grates). PLŘS R-77 has been in the arsenal of the Russian Air Force since 1994 and is used on several types of aircraft. Recently, the PLŘS was offered for export under the designation R-77E with a maximum effective range of 75 km.

[dundun92]

1 hour ago, HWasp said:

This is simply not adding up for me.

did you compare to the DLZ chart at any point, slightly curious.

[HWasp]

14 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

did you compare to the DLZ chart at any point, slightly curious.

 

If you mean the R-73 chart, I did, but what kind of range does that really mean? Max. aerodynamic? How much speed does the missile need to have reaching the target to be considered a reliable shot, given this is an instruction to pilots and not some theoretical stuff?

 

The AIM-9 chart is crystal clear in comparison, is there anything like that for the R-73?

[dundun92]

1 minute ago, HWasp said:

 

If you mean the R-73 chart, I did, but what kind of range does that really mean? Max. aerodynamic? How much speed does the missile need to have reaching the target to be considered a reliable shot, given this is an instruction to pilots and not some theoretical stuff?

 

The AIM-9 chart is crystal clear in comparison, is there anything like that for the R-73?

We know the R-27 DLZ charts are not Raero, so id assume the R-73 charts are similar. For the R-27 DLZs its pulling 3gs for an unspecified amount of time, likely a few seconds.

As far as the latter, no im not aware or any for the R-73, but Its not like I can really search that well in russian anyway

[GGTharos]

18 minutes ago, HWasp said:

 

If you mean the R-73 chart, I did, but what kind of range does that really mean? Max. aerodynamic? How much speed does the missile need to have reaching the target to be considered a reliable shot, given this is an instruction to pilots and not some theoretical stuff?

 

The AIM-9 chart is crystal clear in comparison, is there anything like that for the R-73?

 

There's nothing like this for any other missile out in public.  There may be a couple of data-points that come close in some cases, but nothing on this level.  This is why ED turned to CFD.

[TotenDead]

18 часов назад, Chizh сказал:

Потому что ее отношение длины к диаметру меньше, носовая часть более тупая, элементов оперения больше.

Зато у аим-9 размах оперения больше, при этом аим-9 легче. Ну и так то чем больше удлинение корпуса тем выше сопротивление трения

[Rush_]

9 hours ago, GGTharos said:

 

There's nothing like this for any other missile out in public.  There may be a couple of data-points that come close in some cases, but nothing on this level.  This is why ED turned to CFD.

http://alternatewars.com/SAC/AIM-9L_Sidewinder_SMC_-_November_1974.pdf

 

Air Combat Command and Guidance Situation Assessment Based onAttack Area

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1742-6596/1302/2/022040/pdf

Edited March 30, 2021 by Rush_

[HWasp]

AIM-9L hits at around 840 kts  (1550 km/h) for a rear aspect target with the conditions shown on the chart below (red circle).

 

 

- We know that the AIM-9L is very accurate in DCS ( according to the time-speed chart above )

 

- AIM-9L hits with around +500 km/h closure at what the chart considers as aerodynamic limit ( red circle ) ----> would be logical to think that russian charts also consider some closure at the ranges they show

 

Please adjust the R-27/R-73 so that they have some closure speed remaining as well,when fired according to the maximum ranges showns on the charts. Maybe a 3 G target could be considered?

 

- Мы знаем, что AIM-9L очень точен в DCS (согласно графику время-скорость выше)

 

- AIM-9L попадает с закрытием около +500 км / ч при том, что диаграмма считает аэродинамическим пределом (красный кружок) ----> Логично думать, что российские карты также учитывают некоторое закрытие на тех диапазонах, которые они показывают

 

-Пожалуйста, отрегулируйте R-27 / R-73 так, чтобы у них также оставалась некоторая скорость закрытия при стрельбе в соответствии с максимальными дальностями, указанными на диаграммах. Может быть, можно было бы рассмотреть цель 3G?

 

 

[FoxAlfa]

1 hour ago, HWasp said:

AIM-9L hits at around 840 kts  (1550 km/h) for a rear aspect target with the conditions shown on the chart below (red circle).

 

 

- We know that the AIM-9L is very accurate in DCS ( according to the time-speed chart above )

 

- AIM-9L hits with around +500 km/h closure at what the chart considers as aerodynamic limit ( red circle ) ----> would be logical to think that russian charts also consider some closure at the ranges they show

 

Please adjust the R-27/R-73 so that they have some closure speed remaining as well,when fired according to the maximum ranges showns on the charts. Maybe a 3 G target could be considered?

 

- Мы знаем, что AIM-9L очень точен в DCS (согласно графику время-скорость выше)

 

- AIM-9L попадает с закрытием около +500 км / ч при том, что диаграмма считает аэродинамическим пределом (красный кружок) ----> Логично думать, что российские карты также учитывают некоторое закрытие на тех диапазонах, которые они показывают

 

-Пожалуйста, отрегулируйте R-27 / R-73 так, чтобы у них также оставалась некоторая скорость закрытия при стрельбе в соответствии с максимальными дальностями, указанными на диаграммах. Может быть, можно было бы рассмотреть цель 3G?

 

 

For R-73 fuse speed needs to be factored in, we can expect that they are probably same or similar to R-27... so 150m/s overtake needs to be ensured for rear area shot 

 

[HWasp]

3 minutes ago, FoxAlfa said:

For R-73 fuse speed needs to be factored in, we can expect that they are probably same or similar to R-27... so 150m/s overtake needs to be ensured for rear area shot 

 

 

That is 540 km/h, exactly the same as the AIM-9.  Looks like we found some common standards. 

 

Do you have any document on this, so it cannot be just disregarded?

[HWasp]

3 km shot within range with LA ends up having 1100km/h speed approaching the 900 km/h target.  According to that 150 m/s fuse limit, it is 300km/h slower than the minimum speed it would need to explode. 

 

Выстрел 3 км в пределах досягаемости с ЛА приводит к приближению к цели 900 км / ч со скоростью 1100 км / ч. Согласно этому пределу предохранителя 150 м / с, это на 300 км / ч медленнее минимальной скорости, необходимой для взрыва.

 

 

[nighthawk2174]

Concerning the R73 I don't think people fully appreciate how much extra drag a blunt nose like the R73's adds.  It is significant amounts, not to mention it is a large missile with a larger cross section.

 

Something like the R73 would be the top solid line and the sidewinder is more like the third-fourth line down.

Edited March 30, 2021 by nighthawk2174

[HWasp]

6 minutes ago, nighthawk2174 said:

Concerning the R73 I don't think people fully appreciate how much extra drag a blunt nose like the R73's adds.  It is significant amounts, not to mention it is a large missile with a larger cross section.

 

Something like the R73 would be the top solid line and the sidewinder is more like the third-fourth line down.

 

 

R-27T gets around 10% drag penalty for it's nose vs the 27R in DCS

 

Fact is that the verified, correct AIM-9 has 500km/h closure at maximum range permitted by the chart  <----> R-73 has almost zero closure speed fired within the range permitted by the aircraft and well withing the permitted range shown on the chart.

 

It is not logical to suggest the pilot a launch range, where the missile may gently touch the enemy aircraft at best.

Edited March 30, 2021 by HWasp

[Time 83]

28 минут назад, HWasp сказал:

 

That is 540 km/h, exactly the same as the AIM-9.  Looks like we found some common standards. 

 

Do you have any document on this, so it cannot be just disregarded?

Это какие то физические ограничения для радиовзрывателей, у Р-27 так же. Вот только есть еще несколько видов взрывателей у AIM-9 оптический взрыватель у Р-73 есть еще лазерный взрыватель. К этим взрывателям уже наверно такие ограничения не подойдут.

 

[nighthawk2174]

3 minutes ago, HWasp said:

 

R-27T gets around 10% drag penalty for it's nose vs the 27R in DCS

Yeah but it's unlikely that the current drag values are accurate to rlf, for example I did my own CFD stuff for the R24 and saw much bigger differences than that.  Hec even in the sidewinder chart the differences between the radar nose cone and the sidewinder cone are bigger than that.

 

 

 

[HWasp]

Measured chart as accurate as I could : at H= 1000m , own speed = 1100km/h, target speed = 900 km/h, launch range tail aspect is 3,5 km (conservatively) 

 

R-73 reaches 0 closure speed at this point

 

 

IRL a missile approaching like that, with close to 0 closure speed would have exactly 0% chance to hit. Even slight turbulence would be enough. 

 

I simply don't see any reason to plot a chart with ranges that produce 0% hit chance. AIM-9 chart clearly accounts for this with the remaining  500km/h closure it has in the same situation.

 

For me the only logical possibilty would be if the russian charts would also consider a certain closure speed at their max range. How much? No idea!

 

IRL, у ракеты, приближающейся таким образом, с близкой к 0 скоростью закрытия, будет точно 0% шанс попадания. Достаточно даже небольшой турбулентности.

 

Я просто не вижу смысла строить график с диапазонами, которые дают 0% шанс попадания. График AIM-9 явно объясняет это с оставшимися пробегами на 500 км / ч в той же ситуации.

 

Для меня единственной логической возможностью было бы, если бы российские графики также учитывали определенную скорость закрытия в своем максимальном диапазоне. Сколько? Без понятия!

 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by HWasp

[Rush_]

[HWasp]

R-27R launch H = 1000m, own speed 1100km/h, target speed 900 km/h, distance 6 km as marked.

 

Пуск Р-27Р Н = 1000 м, собственная скорость 1100 км / ч, скорость цели 900 км / ч, дальность 6 км по отметке.

 

Missile falls short of the target flying perfectly straight and level with constant speed

 

Ракета не попадает в цель, летит по прямой и горизонтально с постоянной скоростью.

 

 

R-27R  fuse, where description requires 150 m/s closure

 

Взрыватель Р-27Р, в описании которого требуется срабатывание 150 м / с.

 

Aircraft tells me I am in range, the chart in the manual says I am in range, but missile does not reach the target at all, and there is no hope that the fuse requiring 150 m/s would work ----> this seems obviously wrong to me.

 

Самолет сообщает мне, что я в пределах досягаемости, таблица в руководстве говорит, что я в пределах досягаемости, но ракета вообще не достигает цели, и нет никакой надежды, что взрыватель, требующий 150 м / с, сработает ----> это кажется мне явно неправильным.

 

 

 

Taking into account these limitations, current range for R-27R in DCS for a target with those parameters is around 4,5 km (at that point it will have the closure speed to set off the fuse) (25% difference)

 

Currently the R-27R has around 20% more drag than the AIM-7F missile. The range problem I am talking about here is around 25%.

 

My speculation according to all this is:

 

R-27R drag should be very close to current AIM-7F drag ! (around 20% less on average). This would make perfect sense, given how close these 2 missiles are to each other regarding dimensions and shape

 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by HWasp

[Chizh]

2 hours ago, FoxAlfa said:

For R-73 fuse speed needs to be factored in, we can expect that they are probably same or similar to R-27... so 150m/s overtake needs to be ensured for rear area shot 

 

No. We are simulating a R-73 with a laser proximity fuse. Which does not have such Doppler shift restrictions.

[Chizh]

40 minutes ago, HWasp said:

R-27R launch H = 1000m, own speed 1100km/h, target speed 900 km/h, distance 6 km as marked.

 

Пуск Р-27Р Н = 1000 м, собственная скорость 1100 км / ч, скорость цели 900 км / ч, дальность 6 км по отметке.

 

Missile falls short of the target flying perfectly straight and level with constant speed

 

R-27R and R-27T missiles already updated with digits by CFT research. They will have a bit less drag and more speed. 

Please wait DCS update.

[HWasp]

10 minutes ago, Chizh said:

No. We are simulating a R-73 with a laser proximity fuse. Which does not have such Doppler shift restrictions.

 

Understood, but please have a look at the R-27R then, which does have this limitation.

 

If R-27R does have the required 150m/s closure limitation, that means R-27R charts should show ranges where this speed is met. ----> This means that the assumption that the russian missile charts depict absolute maximum aerodynamic range is incorrect ---> this would logically mean that all those missiles modeled to those charts should have more speed remaining at the ranges shown.

2 minutes ago, Chizh said:

R-27R and R-27T missiles already updated with digits by CFT research. They will have a bit less drag and more speed. 

Please wait DCS update.

 

Sounds good, thank you!

Edited March 30, 2021 by HWasp

[HWasp]

Please also consider making changes to the R-27ER, as it also does not match the chart I found, especially considering the 150 m/s limit.

 

Также подумайте о внесении изменений в R-27ER, так как он также не соответствует найденной мной таблице, особенно с учетом предела 150 м / с.

 

R-27ER launch H=1000m  Own speed: 1250 km/h (should be 1100 according to chart, keeping higher speed to keep radar lock), Target speed: 1100 km/h

 

Пуск Р-27ЭР H = 1000 м. Собственная скорость: 1250 км / ч (по карте должна быть 1100, с сохранением большей скорости для удержания радиолокационного захвата), Целевая скорость: 1100 км / ч.

 

 

 

R-27ER also failed the 5000m / 15km shot for me, even though I was flying 1250 km/h instead of 1100 that test also, and Radar DLZ was showing the target well within range.

 

R-27ER также провалил для меня выстрел на 5000 м / 15 км, хотя я летел на 1250 км / ч вместо 1100 в том же испытании, и Radar DLZ показывал цель в пределах досягаемости.

 

MiG-29A permits launch from further away than what is shown on the chart, but missile is actually underperforming the chart even, so about the first 1/4 of the  launch zone shown by the aircraft has 0 chance to hit a non manevering target.

 

 

МиГ-29А допускает запуск с большего расстояния, чем показано на диаграмме, но ракета на самом деле даже хуже, чем указано на диаграмме, поэтому примерно в первой четверти зоны пуска, показанной самолетом, есть 0 шансов поразить не маневрирующую цель.

Edited March 30, 2021 by HWasp

[TotenDead]

14 минут назад, Chizh сказал:

No. We are simulating a R-73 with a laser proximity fuse. Which does not have such Doppler shift restrictions.

Это не меняет ничего. Графики для Р-73 даны, ракета с радиовзрывателем летает по ним, Р-73Л у вас построена точно так же по ним. Т.е и Р-73 с радиовзрывателем, и Р-73 с лазерным взрывателем, учитывая, что характеристики дальности и скорости у ракет идентичны, на границе этих графиков должны иметь скорость сближения в минимум 150 м/с. Чего у нас не реализовано

[Time 83]

56 минут назад, Chizh сказал:

No. We are simulating a R-73 with a laser proximity fuse. Which does not have such Doppler shift restrictions.

А почему у Р-73 такой особенности не будет, лазерный взрыватель на ней появился не сразу а график может быть для старой ракеты с радиовзрывателем ? И не забудьте тогда про Р-60.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Time 83

[Chizh]

3 hours ago, HWasp said:

Please also consider making changes to the R-27ER, as it also does not match the chart I found, especially considering the 150 m/s limit.

Также подумайте о внесении изменений в R-27ER, так как он также не соответствует найденной мной таблице, особенно с учетом предела 150 м / с.

 

R-27ER is already fully consistent with the data.