BUK S11 discrepancy

[KLR Rico]

I just found out about the SA-11's functionality without radar today! I was flying a mission that features them, used terrain masking to take out the snow drift, and continued on my merry way to rain hell on the units it was defending. About 15-20 minutes later my RWR lights up with a bunch of missile launch warnings and SA-11 cues. I roll over see at least 4 or 5 plumes headed my way, spam the CMS and hit the ECM... Dodge the first few missiles but ended up getting whacked by a direct hit.

 

Until today, I thought the launchers were helpless without the search radar. Guess I was wrong!

[maturin]

Not once it's operating to its full abilities and is setup in ME in a realistic way.

 

Meaning that for example TOR's are included to protect the site from HARM's that manage to get into the minimum launch zone of the S300.

 

(currently TOR's don't shoot down any type of missile, which is a bug IMHO)

 

(there's a reason the west figures the only reliable way to take out an S300 site is by an F22........)

Hmmn...

Currently I can launch on an S-300 radar with just a Kh-58, and it won't engage me at all. I can even launch a flurry of Kh-25s, enough to overwhelm a Tunguska, and survive.

 

Are there mission editor tricks to get SAMs to engage at maximum range?

[159th_Falcon]

***please note, following is for the S300PS***

In the mission editor there are quite a few units you can and should use for the S300PS site.

Most importantly make sure your using BOTH the search radars. Cause if you use the wrong one it will have a dramatic effect on max engagement distance.

(you can ofcourse try it out for yourself by making two missions whit one of the search radars in it)

 

Then there is still the issue that ingame, the only SAM systems at the moment that engage incoming missiles are the Tunguska and the Roland.

Which is ofcourse not very realistic since for example the TOR was specially developed for this task..... and other sams should have this capability as well.

 

Anyway, im still researching a lot of the sams and if i find the information needed i will post bug reports here in an effort to let ED correct things.

 

***EDIT***

just had a look ingame;

The 5N66M is the SR that won't let engagement start beyond 40 km orso, which may or may not be realistic, no idea.

The 64H6E is the SR that will let engagement start beyond 40 km, furthest i have seen so far was 90 orso km.

 

Still a good idea to have both radar though as the 5N66M has better performance on low flying targets if i remember correctly.

Edited October 16, 2012 by 159th_Falcon

[Dudikoff]

Falcon explained everything.

If there is no search radar, the launcher will first acquire the target via an optical targeting system (hence no warning prior to launch).

Once that happens, the missile is launched and guided via the launchers own radar (which means it will show up on the RWR during this period)

 

And you think this switch happens instantly?

 

If I understand correctly, the missile will be either guided by the tracking radar (initially it will be radio command guided based on the data provided by the tracking radar; in terminal phase the missile seeker will guide to the reflections from the target) or manually by electro-optical tracking and radio command guidance.

 

So, in case the radar guidance is used, if your search radar is out, you might use the optical tracking to keep the tracking radar roughly in the target direction before engaging the radar tracking, but the target still needs to be tracked by the radar first before you can launch the missile and I'd expect this to take some time, not 0 seconds; i.e. the RWR should pick up the tracking radar's signal before the launch.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Dudikoff

[Ironhand]

And you think this switch happens instantly?

 

...

It wouldn't. Regardless of the guidance used, if using the Telar alone, the TR would acquire and track you and, then, launch. It wouldn't have to be for long but it wouldn't be instantaneous either. In the cockpit, you should hear the radar as it acquires and locks you and, then, as the PRF went through the ceiling at launch, the RWR would indicate a launch. The two could be close in time--perhaps only a second or two--but not instantaneous.

 

But, then again, a lot of the finer points concerning SAMs have never been modeled in EDs sims...and probably no one else's either. Certainly the Patriot should not even sound like it does on our RWRs. But that's yet another issue.

 

 

Rich

[Cookie]

(what if i buy you guys a cookie?:D)

I´d just like to note that - at this point of time - I am not for sale. Thank you for your understanding.

 

:D

[159th_Falcon]

I hereby regret that i have to tell you the following "cookie".

It has been decided by the forces from higher ups that at any and all times

cookies shall be available for purchase and consumption.

Regardless of there personal preferences.

 

I hope i have hereby informed you enough and that you understand, you should be available in stores at the earliest opportunity, yet no later then tomorrow morning.

 

Best regards.

 

 

[Cookie]

Dear Mr. Falcon,

 

while I fully understand your position, I must regretfully answer your request as follows:

 

[maturin]

***EDIT***

just had a look ingame;

The 5N66M is the SR that won't let engagement start beyond 40 km orso, which may or may not be realistic, no idea.

The 64H6E is the SR that will let engagement start beyond 40 km, furthest i have seen so far was 90 orso km.

 

Still a good idea to have both radar though as the 5N66M has better performance on low flying targets if i remember correctly.

I always put at least one of every S-300 unit in my SAM sites, and never get them to engage past 60km or so. Could it be that the existence of a short range radar is hogging the launchers and preventing the site from benefiting from its long range radar?

[159th_Falcon]

Nope, not that i know of at least. Altitude of the target and aspect/heading in relation to the site do influence launch distance though.

 

Try setting up a B52 to approach the site directly at an altitude of say 14 000 meters. Pretty sure it will engage at something like 80-90 km.

 

***EDIT***

Ok just tried, first launch was at a distance of ~83 km and target altitude was ~ 10 000 meters. (target was B-52)

Edited October 16, 2012 by 159th_Falcon

[maturin]

 

Try setting up a B52 to approach the site directly at an altitude of say 14 000 meters. Pretty sure it will engage at something like 80-90 km.

 

***EDIT***

Ok just tried, first launch was at a distance of ~83 km and target altitude was ~ 10 000 meters. (target was B-52)

I think the altitude was what caused the 50km launches. I wasn't aware that air pressure had such an effect on SAM performance, and supposed that a lowish altitude target would be easier.

 

HOWEVER, the infuriating AI behavior is preventing me from verifying this, as the planes I place tend to hit the deck with all their waypoints on 10000m. Are they reacting to the presence of the SAM, and how can I make them ignore it?

 

Also, if the S-300 can only launch out to 90km even under optimal conditions, that means that player-launched Kh-58s can outrange it, as can the HARM in theory. Doesn't this go against the published literature on the S-300?

 

Either way, the Tunguskas are inadequate, so we really need that Tor to engage missiles.

[159th_Falcon]

I think the altitude was what caused the 50km launches. I wasn't aware that air pressure had such an effect on SAM performance, and supposed that a lowish altitude target would be easier.

 

HOWEVER, the infuriating AI behavior is preventing me from verifying this, as the planes I place tend to hit the deck with all their waypoints on 10000m. Are they reacting to the presence of the SAM, and how can I make them ignore it?

Two possible causes here,

A you set there speed to low for them to be able to maintain altitude

B the plane is not capable at all to fly at that altitude whit the given loadout.

 

Suggest putting in 10 000 meters for altitude on an F-16 and inputting 9999 for speed, it will then default down to max.

 

Also, if the S-300 can only launch out to 90km even under optimal conditions, that means that player-launched Kh-58s can outrange it, as can the HARM in theory. Doesn't this go against the published literature on the S-300?

Yes and NO

Yes, in the game version's of the S300 and KH-58's you can outrange it. (from angels 9 orso)

NO There are lots of different versions of the S300, so be carefull when comparing claims to what happens ingame. (ingame is S300PS, hard to find good info about)

 

Either way, the Tunguskas are inadequate, so we really need that Tor to engage missiles.

I'm on it:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=95713

[Ironhand]

...

just had a look ingame;

The 5N66M is the SR that won't let engagement start beyond 40 km orso, which may or may not be realistic, no idea.

The 64H6E is the SR that will let engagement start beyond 40 km, furthest i have seen so far was 90 orso km...

It may be that, since the 5N66M Clam Shell is designed to dig very low flying targets out of the ground clutter, it is modeled as having less range because of where it's searching. Just a theory. Supposedly it had a much greater range in real life.

 

 

Rich

[Ironhand]

...HOWEVER, the infuriating AI behavior is preventing me from verifying this, as the planes I place tend to hit the deck with all their waypoints on 10000m. Are they reacting to the presence of the SAM, and how can I make them ignore it?...

Select Advanced (Waypoint Actions) under the first airborn WP. Click Add. Set TYPE to "Set Option", Action to "Reaction to Threat", and finally, in the section that opens, select No Reaction.

 

Concerning the 5N66M SR:

 

I was experimenting a bit this morning with the S-300 site and realized that the 5N66M's limited detection zone is due to it's focus along the ground. Don't know what it's scan zone height should be but, in the sim, it is definitely focused to search for low flying objects. You can easily come in above it without the site knowing you are there. Track attached. Just hit autopilot when you enter the pit. You'll end up overflying the site without a shot being fired.

 

 

 

Rich

Edited October 18, 2012 by Ironhand

[maturin]

Russians are freaking lethal with their acronyms and GRAU index; I can't keep these radars straight.

 

If you have a S-300 site with all radar types, will you get something longer range to supplement the 5N66M SR? Or is the whole site handicapped by its low-altitude focus?

[Ironhand]

Russians are freaking lethal with their acronyms and GRAU index; I can't keep these radars straight.

 

If you have a S-300 site with all radar types, will you get something longer range to supplement the 5N66M SR? Or is the whole site handicapped by its low-altitude focus?

 

The 64H6E is the long-range search radar. That one you must have along with the TR whose designation I forget ATM. I've seen the 64H6E hand off tagets to the TR for launches up to 80km or so. I haven't spent too much time wiht it, though. So it might engage at even longer distances than that with the right set of circumstances. I just haven't seen it yet.

 

I haven't tested to see, if adding the 5N66M (more of a mid-range SR) to the site makes the site more efficient in picking up low flying targets. As mentioned, it's role is to pick up low RCS targets out of the ground clutter. So it should but I don't know if it actually does.

 

 

Rich

Edited October 18, 2012 by Ironhand