Pilotasso Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 Agree, I'm not convinced that all they did to the R-77 capable MiG-29S's (which for Russia means only those based at Kursk as per SK) was to add the ability to carry and fire the missile. I believe SK said something about an additional, improved SNP mode on the Malaysian MiGs, which use an export version of the radar that could be expected in the Russian R-77 airframes. Maybe there is some info to be found in Indian sources, their MiGs have been upgraded to a similar standard? Indian Mig-29 K's will be equiped with the Zhuk-ME radar capable of multi engage 4 targets silmutaneously. An upgrade to BARS-29 AESA radars has been also proposed (the same mounted on Su-30MKI...eek!). .
britgliderpilot Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 Yes, but there's a question at to how this dual-engagement capability is actually mechanized. Ie, there is some question as to wether it happens like on an F-15 (ie. you track two targets simultaneously) or like on an F-15 using STT on one plane until its missile goes active, and then acquire and launch on the second target - something along those lines. I don't know why this confusion exists, but I think there must be a good reason. The second option was quoted by someone official sounding as the way it worked - but I'm blowed if I can remember who it was. Bugger. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/britgliderpilot/BS2Britgliderpilot-1.jpg
Pilotasso Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 Yes, but there's a question at to how this dual-engagement capability is actually mechanized. Ie, there is some question as to wether it happens like on an F-15 (ie. you track two targets simultaneously) or like on an F-15 using STT on one plane until its missile goes active, and then acquire and launch on the second target - something along those lines. I don't know why this confusion exists, but I think there must be a good reason. maybe thats on the basline APG-66? Im almost certain the APG-66 V2+ can do it in pure TWS mode. The APG-68 can do 4 that much Im certain. .
Cobra360 Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 We want to know how the N-019M does it, and how.
GGTharos Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 Yes, I caught that part. It just makes me wonder what the tactical applications are given that the scan zone is pretty narrow :) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Trident Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 Indian Mig-29 K's will be equiped with the Zhuk-ME radar capable of multi engage 4 targets silmutaneously. An upgrade to BARS-29 AESA radars has been also proposed (the same mounted on Su-30MKI...eek!). No, I'm talking about their existing MiG fleet, not the MiG-29K and perhaps MiG-29M (now called MiG-35) that they are getting in future.
GGTharos Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 I would imagine so, but I think it may have some other applications too, such as essentially bypassing standoff jammers in some way, or getting a very accurate direction from AWACS - but then again I don't see why the F-15 couldn't just use a narrow 10deg azimuth BVR search to do the same ... hm. Well anyway, I'll end my speculation at that :) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
D-Scythe Posted November 5, 2005 Author Posted November 5, 2005 I posted the question at f-15estrikeeagle.net - hopefully, somebody will settle the mystery of the CAC modes for us. In the meantime, can anyone explain the 'WTF' performance of the AIM-7M, in comparison to the AIM-120?
SwingKid Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 In the meantime, can anyone explain the 'WTF' performance of the AIM-7M, in comparison to the AIM-120? Not taking one side or the other on the "WTF", but for those that feel a smaller missile should generally have longer range than a larger missile... Can you explain, "why"? -SK
Pilotasso Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 I think he means the kill ratio is better for the AIM-7 when it was supossed to be the other way arround (AIM-120). Range is not the issue here. .
D-Scythe Posted November 5, 2005 Author Posted November 5, 2005 Not taking one side or the other on the "WTF", but for those that feel a smaller missile should generally have longer range than a larger missile... Can you explain, "why"? -SK What? Where'd you get that idea? ;) But seriously, I wasn't asking for more range out of the Slammer - I was asking why the AIM-7 had such a higher pK than the AIM-120, when virtually every source you can look up credits the AIM-120 as being superior to the AIM-7, hands down and backwards.
Gazehound Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 Who is to say that the AIM-7 should'nt have higher PK when fired than an AIM-120 *when fired by the AI*, consider:- 1. Its got a larger warhead 2. Its shot from closer range by the AI How about a test where you (personally) shoot at an unarmed fighter from (a) max range under constant alt and speed conditions; (b) a set range inside AIM-7 Rmax? VVS504 Red Hammers
D-Scythe Posted November 5, 2005 Author Posted November 5, 2005 Who is to say that the AIM-7 should'nt have higher PK when fired than an AIM-120 *when fired by the AI*, consider:- 1. Its got a larger warhead 2. Its shot from closer range by the AI How about a test where you (personally) shoot at an unarmed fighter from (a) max range under constant alt and speed conditions; (b) a set range inside AIM-7 Rmax? I did shoot them personally. Sorry, didn't make that clear. The Fulcrum (excellent AI) was jamming and also well within range (outer edge of NEZ) considering the evasive manuevers the AI does. Speed for me and the Fulcrum was 900 kmph, both starting at an altitude of 5000 m. After launch, I break to gimbal and descend to keep lock. BTW, large warhead has nothing to do with pK.
Gazehound Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 I did shoot them personally. Sorry, didn't make that clear. The Fulcrum (excellent AI) was jamming and also well within range (outer edge of NEZ) considering the evasive manuevers the AI does. Speed for me and the Fulcrum was 900 kmph, both starting at an altitude of 5000 m. After launch, I break to gimbal and descend to keep lock. BTW, large warhead has nothing to do with pK. Ah ok, good point. There is one thing - If an f15 launches a -7 at me I rarely dodge it without shooting him first - because I dont have the RWR active missile countdown cue to turn thru the missile. But that shouldnt matter against AI. VVS504 Red Hammers
Guest IguanaKing Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 What? Where'd you get that idea? ;) But seriously, I wasn't asking for more range out of the Slammer - I was asking why the AIM-7 had such a higher pK than the AIM-120, when virtually every source you can look up credits the AIM-120 as being superior to the AIM-7, hands down and backwards. Yup...the AIM-7 had a horrible PK, even as recently as ODS.
S77th-GOYA Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 Even in real combat, the AIM-120 has had a kill probability of 60-65% When fired from what range? What aspect? I know that's not your quote, but it's incomplete data.
SwingKid Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 Yup...the AIM-7 had a horrible PK, even as recently as ODS. Really? I somehow thought the -7M in ODS had a better Pk record (around 70% IIRC) than all the AIM-120s fired since (around 50% IIRC). My sources on this may not be 100% reliable though. -SK
Cobra360 Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 Yeah the USAF held some tests with the AIM-7M about 2 years before ODS. They fired 88 sparrows and only 23 hit.
Kula66 Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 Really? I somehow thought the -7M in ODS had a better Pk record (around 70% IIRC) than all the AIM-120s fired since (around 50% IIRC). -SK I'd heard about 70% too ... and a couple of the misses were shots where the pilot fired, nothing happened for a few seconds, he fired again and then 2 missiles launched ... I guess there was some delay after pushing the button and in the heat of the moment fired twice. Seems like most of the early Sparrow problems got fixed eventually. However, I would have guessed (no hard evidence here) that the 120 was an improvement in all areas ... with the possible exception being range )because its a smaller missile)
britgliderpilot Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 Really? I somehow thought the -7M in ODS had a better Pk record (around 70% IIRC) than all the AIM-120s fired since (around 50% IIRC). My sources on this may not be 100% reliable though. -SK The Sparrow has indeed been credited with the largest number of kills in Desert Storm. Of course, that doesn't actually mean much - the AMRAAM was only deployed in small numbers in Desert Storm and the Sparrow was still the primary BVR weapon. ;) The number I saw for Sparrow PK in Desert Storm was 33%. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/britgliderpilot/BS2Britgliderpilot-1.jpg
D-Scythe Posted November 5, 2005 Author Posted November 5, 2005 Really? I somehow thought the -7M in ODS had a better Pk record (around 70% IIRC) than all the AIM-120s fired since (around 50% IIRC). My sources on this may not be 100% reliable though. -SK No way. IIRC, something like 71 AIM-7Ms were fired in Desert Storm, with only 25 kills. I'm not 100% sure on that though, but FOR SURE it is *not* 70%. The AIM-120's pK has been proven *far* higher in combat (but as Goya said, I don't know the exact conditions of each kill - actually, Goya's point is somewhat misleading because we don't know the exact conditions for any kill with ANY missile). It's approaching 70%, depending on whose figures you use, but moreover, something like 80% of all AMRAAM kills were made with only a single AIM-120. Most of its misses came from an encounter with Iraqi MiG-25s during Desert Fox, when three were launched from long-range by F-15Cs, all of which were defeated when the Foxbats turned tail and fled back across the 33rd parallel that marked the boundary of the No-escape zone. Consider also that when a pair of Navy F-14s encountered a few Foxbats later that same day, and used AIM-54Cs that *also* missed because the Foxbats ran, you can't really blame this on the AIM-120. Considering that only a handful of AIM-120s were fired in combat, this drastically reduced its hit percentage. I actually can't believe there is actually debate on which is the better missile. I thought we were ALL on the same boat when it came to the AIM-120 and AIM-7.
Pilotasso Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 The Sparrow has indeed been credited with the largest number of kills in Desert Storm. Of course, that doesn't actually mean much - the AMRAAM was only deployed in small numbers in Desert Storm and the Sparrow was still the primary BVR weapon. ;) The number I saw for Sparrow PK in Desert Storm was 33%. The AMRAAM was put to service in the war using the very initial production examples. Practicaly pre-production. They werent even considered the primary AA missile. After the war it was modified because it wasnt realy ready yet. For example they added lateral reinfocements because the missile tended to bend on the pylons during high G manuevers. .
Cobra360 Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 The first Aim-120 kill was made in December 1992 when a F-16D block 40 was patrolling a no-fly zone which was crossed by an Iraqi MiG-25. Then in 1994 there was a triple kill by a single F-16CJ, 3 Serb G-4 Super Galebs were downed in under 2 minutes by 2 AMRAAMs and an AIM-9. And over Kosovo there were 3 MiG-29s shot down by F-15Cs, each by a single 120. A Dutch F-16AM also got a MiG-29 kill with a single 120 and a USAF F-16CJ got a MiG-29 kill but required 2 AMRAAMs to bring the MiG down.
Gazehound Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 No way. IIRC, something like 71 AIM-7Ms were fired in Desert Storm, with only 25 kills. That is no measure of pK. Pilots would be firing more than one. VVS504 Red Hammers
Guest IguanaKing Posted November 5, 2005 Posted November 5, 2005 The Sparrow has indeed been credited with the largest number of kills in Desert Storm. Of course, that doesn't actually mean much - the AMRAAM was only deployed in small numbers in Desert Storm and the Sparrow was still the primary BVR weapon. ;) The number I saw for Sparrow PK in Desert Storm was 33%. Yes, some AIM-120s were deployed in ODS...none of them were actually fired though. ;)
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