JTAC questions

[Skall]

Been practicing JTACs with a simple custom mission and have a few questions. I know these are probably very variable based on the situation, I'm only looking for ballpark figures.

 

1. How far out is JTAC usually contacted to begin reporting in?

2. How far from targets do Initial Points tend to be?

3. Do you call "IP Inbound" when on your way to IP, when you are on it, or after you've passed it?

4. I don't understand when to use the "Off" radio option. Manual says I should use it when weapons are released. If I use it after release but before impact, JTAC complaints that I didn't hit the target. If I wait until after impact, JTAC acknowledges the hit and option disappears.

 

Closer to the side of the game engine, all questions assuming the FAC Enroute Task:

 

5. If I don't place any IPs on the ME, how does the AI determine what my egress direction should be? I never placed any on my map and it would often ask me to egress 110-200 despite no real anti-air threats.

6. If multiple IPs are placed on the ME, how does the AI determine which IP to use?

7. If only one IP is placed, will the AI always use it or will it discard it if appropriate (say the targets are really far from IP or there are threats in the area of the IP)?

8. Anyway to have JTAC give you coords not in UTM? Kind of annoying when the CDU makes it simple to enter L/L or MGRS while UTM requires more fingering of the UFC/CDU (I know if the JTAC is set to EPLRS then all I have to do is hook/SPI on TAD but I want to practice inputting the coordinates to get more comfortable with the CDU).

 

Any additional tips/hints for setting up or working with JTACs will be appreciated.

[Druid_]

Ok I will do my best from my limited knowledge on JTACs IRL & some RL experience

1. varies, up to the range of the range of the ground based JTAC radio (100nm) typically the call would go out 10-15 mins before the target area. More often than not they would put out a request and a CAS group nearest (and able) to his Posn would respond

2. IPs tend to be large features and therefore again vary, a good IP is one which allows the pilot to line on the target correctly, identify & shoot without being shot at himself during the target run.

3. On it

4. If you break off the target run for any reason that's when I use off (might be wrong here)

5. Usually dependant on surrounding enemy units , if none then I don't know.. Random?

6. I never place IPs, they aren't required. They were used in BS but not really relevant for A10.

7. See 6. Don't know

8. No sorry.

 

A great tip is to pick a good user mission that someone has posted and see how they implement it. Also use the search function , there are plenty of threads on JTAC.

 

Cheers

[Skall]

1. 10-15 mins before target area if cruising heavy at 240 knots-ish means 40+ miles away. Explains part of my dilemma. I was practically breathing down the guy's neck when I radio-ed in, in comparison.

 

2. Gotcha.

 

3. Thanks.

 

4. Will look a bit more into it.

 

5-8. If not relevant to A10 then it makes sense. I thought it would be inflexible for the JTAC if IPs had to be determine that well ahead of time (mission planning phase). In my head it made sense if the JTAC determines IP based on the more immediate situation.

 

I guess in this sim JTAC never gives IPs? I've only ever gotten egress directions so I tend to pick an ingress point opposite of the egress direction and across the target.

 

I will hunt around for some user missions. I've been using the search functionality to try and dig up info on this, unfortunately most JTAC threads are about process. Heck, most help threads are. I've seen very few threads cover laying things out and approaching them from a realistic standpoint. That is my concern: that I'm practicing against realistic or semi-realistic conditions/situations (at least as far as the simulation will allow me to).

 

I want to drill the systems into my head, I don't want to drill bad procedure, though.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

EDIT:

 

Hmm, if JTAC here does not report IP, how can you possibly report "IP inbound"? I guess you call it on your terms.

 

Ok I will do my best from my limited knowledge on JTACs IRL & some RL experience

1. varies, up to the range of the range of the ground based JTAC radio (100nm) typically the call would go out 10-15 mins before the target area. More often than not they would put out a request and a CAS group nearest (and able) to his Posn would respond

2. IPs tend to be large features and therefore again vary, a good IP is one which allows the pilot to line on the target correctly, identify & shoot without being shot at himself during the target run.

3. On it

4. If you break off the target run for any reason that's when I use off (might be wrong here)

5. Usually dependant on surrounding enemy units , if none then I don't know.. Random?

6. I never place IPs, they aren't required. They were used in BS but not really relevant for A10.

7. See 6. Don't know

8. No sorry.

 

A great tip is to pick a good user mission that someone has posted and see how they implement it. Also use the search function , there are plenty of threads on JTAC.

 

Cheers

Edited November 23, 2012 by Skall

[Druid_]

Yep IP is the point at which you begin your attack run (and it can vary after each run), if your in close, I would call it sooner rather than later as you may have to make another call.

[SmokeyTheLung]

My memory is a bit hazy on this one, but I seem the remember that you'd want your final attack heading to be on the same heading as the closest friendlies/target. So you are over flying friendlies on your final attack heading.

 

Makes a lot of sense when you consider gun ricochets and bomb blast patterns (based on the angle of impact). Like I said though, can't quite remember the specifics, and the above may only be relevant in a danger close situation

[WildBillKelsoe]

Lets say you got 3 waypoints:

 

1- MSN008

2- IP

3- TGT

 

IP inbound means you are about to enter IP. You start IP inbound call @ MSN008. during the time from MSN008 to IP, JTAC will pop smoke.

 

IN from N/S/E/W.

 

Release ordnance and break off.

 

Wait for BDA or ABORT. Don't use OFF.

 

As for IP inbound calls, it is with Type 1 in effect (one that is equipped with smoke/laser, and is in direct contact [DANGER CLOSE])

[Skall]

Thanks, the concreteness of that example helps clear things up.

 

Lets say you got 3 waypoints:

 

1- MSN008

2- IP

3- TGT

 

IP inbound means you are about to enter IP. You start IP inbound call @ MSN008. during the time from MSN008 to IP, JTAC will pop smoke.

 

IN from N/S/E/W.

 

Release ordnance and break off.

 

Wait for BDA or ABORT. Don't use OFF.

 

As for IP inbound calls, it is with Type 1 in effect (one that is equipped with smoke/laser, and is in direct contact [DANGER CLOSE])

[Yurgon]

I guess in this sim JTAC never gives IPs? I've only ever gotten egress directions so I tend to pick an ingress point opposite of the egress direction and across the target.

 

I just finished reading Fire Strike 7/9 by Paul Grahame, a British JTAC in Afghanistan.

 

Throughout the book, I don't once remember him writing about an IP. Then again, he didn't describe the JTAC procedures in that much detail, I think the term "9-line" never came up either.

 

The important thing I took away from it is that attack directions in danger close situations were all about directing the blast away from friendlies, exactly as SmokeyTheLung wrote.

 

Plus JTACs, troops and aircrew all had maps with named grids and positions, like "Alpha X-Ray" or "Gulf Bravo Nine One". Talking the pilot's eyes on a position is probably a lot faster this way than by giving a long string of coordinates. Combine that with "I want a strafe attack from south-east to north-west along the tree-line" and the attack is pretty much set up.

[Skall]

Yeah, that seems a bit more practical.

[TC]

My 02 for working with the JTAC ...

1. Upon ingress I pick a spot usually close enough to the frontline/ JTAC that I can be there in a short time, yet far enough out to be safe from enemy fire. There I set my plane up and get me ready.

2. I use markpoints as IP´s and set them up about 5-15nm from target, if at all possible aligned with wind direction. Range IP -> target depends greatly on weapon type used and overall threat level. Distance should be sufficent to aquire the target, align your plane and point the weapons on your target, but of course you don´t want to fly in a straight and predictible line for longer than neccessary. Never ever overfly friendlies either in our out if you can avoid it.

3. I make the call (at the) IP whem I´m INBOUND to the target. Thus the JTAC can pop smoke, get the laser ready and warn the other grunts to look for cover.

4. The call IN (hot) is made when actual weapon employment is imminent, aka I am rolling in for the bombing/ strafing run. So every friendly knows there is stuff falling down the sky.

5. I call OFF (to the xxx) after I turn away from the target run and my weapons have had a chance to impact. Friendlies can come out of cover and the JTAC can asses my hits. In RL I would get a new target or sent away, not really working in sim.

Cheers

TC

[Skall]

Thanks TC, I'll try that approach.

 

I do get additional targets, though. On this mission I have 2 tanks, 2 transports, a bunker and a tower. The JTAC will ask me to attack the tanks followed by the transports since they are both close to him. I took the advice from another thread to add an overhead scout on orbit, like the Predator, and without having to configure anything else, they share vision so the JTAC was able to point me to the far away units and buildings afterwards.

 

I use the FAC enroute task, not the FAC - Engage Group version.

[TC]

You´re welcome :-)

 

you may want to read up on the subject here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/jp3_09_3.pdf

 

and here:

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_092a.html

 

Second link is more general use of the A-10, but a great read anyway.

 

Cheers

TC

[Skall]

Wow! Excellent resources. I'm adding these to my ever growing list of DCS-relevant documents :thumbup:

 

You´re welcome :-)

 

you may want to read up on the subject here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/jp3_09_3.pdf

 

and here:

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_092a.html

 

Second link is more general use of the A-10, but a great read anyway.

 

Cheers

TC