Mig-21 " Bison " surprises US F-16 in Cope India 2005

[LaRata]

Hello :

 

I believe the US pilot need to be training more in close combat. Not all the pilot their meet in the future will have a low and poor training like the iraquis !!! in 1991 Iraq War !!!

 

http://www.newkerala.com/news.php?action=fullnews&id=54604

[D-Scythe]

Hello :

 

I believe the US pilot need to be training more in close combat. Not all the pilot their meet in the future will have a low and poor training like the iraquis !!! in 1991 Iraq War !!!

 

http://www.newkerala.com/news.php?action=fullnews&id=54604

 

Did the Americans go AMRAAM-less in this one too? There should be no reason why the MiG-21s got that close in the first place.

 

Just FYI, with R-73s, a MiG-21 might as well be as deadly in air combat as a F-16. Getting close enough to force a dogfight is the big factor that evens the technological playing field.

 

I'll tell you right now, a MiG-17 (upgraded with Archers) would have no trouble cutting any aircraft in service right now to shreds in a dogfight if flown properly, with the exception of maybe the F/A-22.

[Pilotasso]

Mind the part of the text that says "sophisticated F-16 jets were in for a few surprises" doesnt mean the US planes got pwned. it only says they perfomed better than expected. This may be not only due to R-73/helmet but training.

The F-16's in my AF only need helmets and AIM-9x missile pakages to fire them in anger. They are now updated to recieve them, I would then like to see how the mig-21/93 base variant would fare against them...

[britgliderpilot]

Hello :

 

I believe the US pilot need to be training more in close combat. Not all the pilot their meet in the future will have a low and poor training like the iraquis !!! in 1991 Iraq War !!!

 

http://www.newkerala.com/news.php?action=fullnews&id=54604

 

The USAF trains for combat with an enemy that hasn't been well trained. India doesn't fit that profile - the pilots are very well trained, and IIRC get more flying hours per year than any other country in the world.

 

 

Whether the USAF will pick a fight with India for any reason remains to be seen - at the moment, potential aggressors still tend to have relatively badly trained air forces.

[Pilotasso]

I think these exercises are going to exacerbate the false sense that old russian planes are better than western when upgraded. I think the US is taking advantage of that since the JSF program has recently proposed to be cut down, or even cancelled.

 

First they threaten the F-22's production rates, then US takes "a beating" in cope india 2004 with F-15's VS Su-30's.

 

This year the JSF is to have major cuts and F-16 pilots take "a beating" from mig-21's... Anyone else see a pattern here? ;)

[TucksonSonny]

I think these exercises are going to exacerbate the false sense that old russian planes are better than western when upgraded. I think the US is taking advantage of that since the JSF program has recently proposed to be cut down, or even cancelled.

 

First they threaten the F-22's production rates, then US takes "a beating" in cope india 2004 with F-15's VS Su-30's.

 

This year the JSF is to have major cuts and F-16 pilots take "a beating" from mig-21's... Anyone see a pattern here? ;)

 

The only new plane I can see in this training coop is the su-30. All the others have almost my age I guess :icon_kidr

[Alfa]

Did the Americans go AMRAAM-less in this one too? There should be no reason why the MiG-21s got that close in the first place...

 

Not touching this subject with a 10-foot pole, but...:biggrin:

 

"That close" - why would they need to get close?. The MiG-21-93 "Bison" upgrade involves the R-77 as a major component ;) .

 

I would say that it would be the MiG-21 that would try to keep its distance and not get into a dogfight - as far as I can see it would be at a serious disadvantage against an F-16 :)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Yellonet]

Mind over matter.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Scripted exercise. ;)

[The Beast]

Iquanaking is right most the exercises are scripted to where the -16 and the 15 are dumbed down to pretty much give the other a chance to get some a/a practice but in all reallity im pretty sure if the need arises that mig would have been shot down well before it was in range for a shot

[Pilotasso]

Not touching this subject with a 10-foot pole, but...:biggrin:

 

"That close" - why would they need to get close?. The MiG-21-93 "Bison" upgrade involves the R-77 as a major component ;) .

 

I would say that it would be the MiG-21 that would try to keep its distance and not get into a dogfight - as far as I can see it would be at a serious disadvantage against an F-16 :)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

 

I think in BVR the mig is also at disavantage since the APG-68 is better than the tiny Russian radar.

[D-Scythe]

Not touching this subject with a 10-foot pole, but...:biggrin:

 

"That close" - why would they need to get close?. The MiG-21-93 "Bison" upgrade involves the R-77 as a major component ;) .

 

I would say that it would be the MiG-21 that would try to keep its distance and not get into a dogfight - as far as I can see it would be at a serious disadvantage against an F-16 :)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

 

The article specifically mentioned that the MiG-21 "gave" the F-16 trouble in a dogfight ;) If not, well, I'm not touching this with a 10 foot pole either (or in this case, a 50 km one).

 

Mind the part of the text that says "sophisticated F-16 jets were in for a few surprises" doesnt mean the US planes got pwned. it only says they perfomed better than expected. This may be not only due to R-73/helmet but training.

The F-16's in my AF only need helmets and AIM-9x missile pakages to fire them in anger. They are now updated to recieve them, I would then like to see how the mig-21/93 base variant would fare against them...

 

And where did I say that US planes got pwned?

 

 

The USAF trains for combat with an enemy that hasn't been well trained.

 

And you get that how? AFAIK, the U.S. trained in the 80s-early 90s for combat with the Soviet Union, and as far as ACM and BVR combat goes, the doctrine hasn't changed significantly.

 

Kill as many enemy BVR with Slammers, and avoid close-quarters combat with MiG-29s and Su-27s. In case dogfighting becomes necessary, that's why F-15C and Viper pilots do DACM against Aggressors and European MIG-29s.

 

Do you have a source?

[Yellonet]

I think in BVR the mig is also at disavantage since the APG-68 is better than the tiny Russian radar.

Are you sure about that? The MiG-21 variant that uses the R-77 obviously has a new radar too...

[Pilotasso]

And where did I say that US planes got pwned?

 

you didnt, but many will think that way. I just made a preemptive denial. ;)

[23rd_Drago]

I think these exercises are going to exacerbate the false sense that old russian planes are better than western when upgraded. I think the US is taking advantage of that since the JSF program has recently proposed to be cut down, or even cancelled.

 

First they threaten the F-22's production rates, then US takes "a beating" in cope india 2004 with F-15's VS Su-30's.

 

This year the JSF is to have major cuts and F-16 pilots take "a beating" from mig-21's... Anyone else see a pattern here? ;)

 

Or a better tactic was used by India… have you ever thought about that?

[phantom_fly85]

PLEASE, read the article before making your post! This was a COOP not a COMPETITION! Why do some here believe there was a dogfight? And when did the Mig-21 get helmet mounted target acquisition devices? Did not say that in the article I read.

[Pilotasso]

Or a better tactic was used by India… have you ever thought about that?

 

India has proven to be good in combat during its wars back in the 60's and 70's.

But comon, theres so much margin for better tactics when the exercise is "fixed". A fully armed F-16 block 50 with APG 68 and AMRAAM needs to be flown significantly poorer than the mig-21 bison to let be caught just like that.

 

I Doubt the indian Pilots would have an easy time as this, if the US realy wanted to win.

 

The west has always held an advantage in radar range and multi engagemtn capability, I SERIOUSLY doubt that the tiny Phazatron Kopyo can out do an APG-68. You need a stable lock untill the missile goes active you know.

 

More likely than not, there will be sirens ringing back in the pentagon for the JSF as it was for the F-22 last year. Wait and see.;)

[Pilotasso]

PLEASE, read the article before making your post! This was a COOP not a COMPETITION! Why do some here believe there was a dogfight? And when did the Mig-21 get helmet mounted target acquisition devices? Did not say that in the article I read.

 

Those words are there but you missinterpreted the whole deal. Adversary planes dont fly by themseves, you know. ;) Most likely they had mixed teams, as usualy hapens in most exercises. And since the purpose of the exercise is suposed to be share of experiences, hence the term "cooperation".

 

I reality It might be a gathering of technical inteligence as well.

[D-Scythe]

Now that I think about it, Pilotasso's theory is actually a very sensible one. They *did* threaten the F/A-22 program last time, didn't they? So the F-15Cs then took a "beating."

 

Never thought about it like that. Nice theory man :)

[Alfa]

The article specifically mentioned that the MiG-21 "gave" the F-16 trouble in a dogfight ;)

 

No it didnt :biggrin: .....the word "dogfight" does not appear in the article at all ;)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Alfa]

I think in BVR the mig is also at disavantage since the APG-68 is better than the tiny Russian radar.

 

How "tiny" is the Kopyo in comparison with the APG-68? :)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Pilotasso]

How "tiny" is the Kopyo in comparison with the APG-68? :)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

 

...Small enough to fit inside the radome inside the migs intake... ;)

 

kinda reminds me off those woden russian dols.:biggrin:

[Yellonet]

...Small enough to fit inside the radome inside the migs intake... ;)

 

kinda reminds me off those woden russian dols.:biggrin:

Doesn't seem to be that much smaller.

 

 

[D-Scythe]

No it didnt :biggrin: .....the word "dogfight" does not appear in the article at all ;)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

 

My bad then. Fine, the original poster said dogfight/close combat - guess he didn't read it either :D

[LaRata]

Did the Americans go AMRAAM-less in this one too? There should be no reason why the MiG-21s got that close in the first place.

 

Just FYI, with R-73s, a MiG-21 might as well be as deadly in air combat as a F-16. Getting close enough to force a dogfight is the big factor that evens the technological playing field.

 

I'll tell you right now, a MiG-17 (upgraded with Archers) would have no trouble cutting any aircraft in service right now to shreds in a dogfight if flown properly, with the exception of maybe the F/A-22.

 

US F-15C are using AIM_9X and AIM-120, in the pass Cope India 2004 and still the Mig-21 Bison perform very well...

 

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Special/CopeIndia/CopeIndia34.jpg

 

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Special/CopeIndia/CopeIndia22.jpg

 

One or the many Inf. in the Internet. Not sure is all true but the mayority did say the same.

http://www.indiadefence.com/COPE.htm

 

" While the superb performances of IAF Sukhoi-30s were somewhat anticipated, the performance of MiG-21Bison came as a major “unpleasant surprise” to the USAF officials. It also validates the claim of the Russian officials that they are capable of successfully converting “second generation” late-model MiG-21bis fighters to “fourth generation combat platforms”. Inherently the significant positive attributes enjoyed by MiG-21s were their dog fighting ability in WVR (Within Visual Range) combat. Even the earlier models had a low corner velocity of 556 kilometres per hour and at Mach 0.5 had an instantaneous turn rate of 11.1 degrees per second. The MiG-21Bison with more powerful R-25 engines not only considerably bettered this performance but it may also be credited with “jackrabbit” acceleration, a very critical attribute in WVR combat.

 

Among many fourth generations attributes added to the IAF MiG-21Bison design, the incorporation of HMS (Helmet Mounted Sight) and high-off-boresight R-73RDM2 NBVR/WVR (Near Beyond Visual Range/Within Visual Range) AAMs (Air-to-Air Missiles) have turned it into a “Great Equalizer” in the WVR combat scenario. Conceptually a small number of MiG-21Bisons maintaining “radar silence” can be guided towards their aerial target by a couple of Sukhoi-30s by secure data links in accordance with MFFC (Mixed Fighter Force Concept). Upon entering into an WVR combat envelope the MiG-21Bisons armed with HMS and deadly NBVR/WVR missiles had the capability of destroying even fifth-generation fighters alike F/A-22 Raptor as assessed by high-profile Fighter Analyst Ben Lambeth of RAND Corporation. According to Lambeth “in visual combat everybody dies at the same rate.” F/A-22 also has to slow down if forced into a WVR combat scenario and loses the advantage of its super-cruise attributes. The situation further complicates if the IAF Sukhoi-30s have acquired the capability of providing target illumination for RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) BVR missiles being launched from IAF MiG-21Bisons at extended ranges. "