Civ Traffic can't be turned off?

[ENO]

On the civ forced condition issue... acknowledging that in the multiplayer thread forcing civ and scene detail cause connectivity issues...

 

We've got a particular mission (Kutaisi / Senaki area) where combat between forces causes a bridge west of Vani to get knocked out. Of course traffic subsequently piles up for MILES- and continues to build up forever. I suspect at least SOME of our FPS issues revolve around the time of day... basically sunrise. I run a 980X with a 680 graphics card and 12 gigs of RAM... yet I can't pull much higher than 20fps max during the mission (in cockpit occasionally I get ~30). Many of the clients are reporting similar issues.

 

We've tried turning off civ traffic completely- but even when the clients turn civ traffic off it ends up being present. Clients turn it off, it's off in the mission and even the server computer is set to have civ traffic off- yet it's still in there.

 

We've also noticed a few instances where civ traffic has ALWAYS been turned off (and it actually WAS off) in the past (in the Highway mission, for example) where traffic suddenly reappeared again in one of the updates and has been impossible to turn off since.

 

Any solutions out there for this? Is forcing civ traffic off going to cause errors or is it only when forcing it ON causing the errors?

 

Something we need to test? Someone have any info?

Edited December 11, 2012 by ENO

[Grimes]

Is it set to Off in the options for the host computer?

[Kuky]

Have you tried opening the mission and setting CIV traffic to off and forcing it to be off for that particular mission?

[Grimes]

It appears to be a bug, try the following:

 

Two ways to fix it:

1. Uncheck "use these options for all missions" on the host box and re-save the mission file with the host box. The mission should default to whatever is set within the forced options in the mission.

 

2. Check "use these options for all missions" and set civ traffic to off on the host PC, and re-save the mission file.

[ENO]

Eh guys... okay- well from where I am right now I can't verify whether those suggestions will work (yet- it'll be later today or tomorrow)- when I checked my settings again (double checked) the "use for all missions" is off and made sure the mission was set to off.

 

My understanding is we can't force scene settings and traffic settings- so I've been staying away from that. It may or may not be true, but I've left them unenforced and the server has been solid so I'm unwilling to tamper too much with it.

 

I've got the settings turned off on both the server and the mission. If that doesn't work I'll turn "use these settings for all missions" on and check again. Missions will be resaved with those settings before testing again.

 

Thanks for the input guys.

Edited December 11, 2012 by ENO

[Grimes]

Quoting cross sites here.

Rider gave me some information that I need to check - re: ensuring that Civ Traffic is really off, for instance - but I have to go into lua files to check it and just have not been feeling well enough to tackle the computer again. Maybe tonight, but will give it my best before the weekend.

 

I've never seen Civ Traffic completely Off. The Highway was built with Civ Traffic = Off yet there has always been some of it on the road. Simple enough to see if it will really be Off in a new test mission. Rider's info may help to determine something here.

 

Not exactly. All of the current options are saved into the mission file depending on the settings of the computer saving the mission in the editor. Additionally the true/false value of "use these settings for all missions" is saved into the mission file. So the question of a certain mission being built with civ traffic off is dependent on a few factors.

1. Your personal settings in options. Do you have civ traffic enabled in options/systems.

2. The value of "use these settings for all missions" found in options/gameplay.

3. Mission options forcing a setting on/off within the mission.

 

By default whatever you have civ traffic set to in your options will be the default value in the editor when you create/save a mission.

If "use these settings for all missions" is ticked true then the civ traffic will always be what you have set in the options regardless of the option being forced in the mission

If "use these settings for all missions" is ticked false and no civ traffic setting is specified in the mission options, then it will use whatever is the default.

If "use these settings for all missions" is ticked false and any civ traffic option is forced to whatever setting, it will use that setting in the mission.

 

In single player some local settings will over-ride mission settings. However in multiplayer it should always use the mission settings. So if you have labels on and use these settings for all missions is true, but the mission is forcing labels off, the labels should be on in SP only. When launched in MP it should use whatever is forced in the mission.

 

My understanding is we can't force scene settings and traffic settings

Both should work, however it appears that the civ traffic setting is bugged. Forcing scenes works just fine, however there are ways around it for the end user and I'm not sure how the sim will react if the host doesn't have buildings rendered and the player does.

 

I've got the settings turned off on both the server and the mission.

 

So that begs the question of what settings does Wrecking Crew have forced on his computer when he made the missions and what are the settings of the last user to save the mission. Otherwise it doesn't matter what settings you have on the host PC because it will always use whatever is in the mission. You have to go in and change your options, open the mission and just hit "save" and all of the defaults will "sync" with the current PCs game settings.

[Wrecking Crew]

Grimes,

Thank you for the detailed reply to Eno's posts and my SimHQ post.

 

Before I respond to your post - I have an observation.

 

The mission is 'WC's Thunder Of Kojori v1.2.2.1j'. This version scheme uses the release of DCS as the first 3 places and my revision follows - '1j'. I can use 7-Zip to unpack the .miz files w/o renaming the extensions to .zip.

 

When I unpack Thunder v1..2.2.1j I see another .miz file - 'WCrew's Thunder Of Kojori v1.2.2.12b.miz'; this is a down-level version of the mission with the older 'WCrew's..' identifier at the beginning of the name, and the old revision scheme; the changes in the latest version were done to shorten the mission names to accommodate the teeny little windows that DCS gives us.

 

When I unpack the 'WCrew's Thunder Of Kojori v1.2.2.12b.miz' there is another .miz file in it! That one is 'WCrew's Thunder Of Kojori v1.2.11x.miz' - a down-level version that I made at the DCS v1.2.1 release.

 

 

Each of these miz files have the two pictures in the mission that adds to the file size and download time each time a mission is Joined.

 

This is just boggling. Why are complete copies of down-level versions in the mission's miz file?

 

I am going to delete the down-level miz files and repack it. And then we'll talk about Options.

 

Wrecking Crew

[Grimes]

Did you use the "load mission" trigger action. For some reason the functionality changed from being a "reference" of the file name to actually saving the mission to load within the current mission file. Without looking at the mission file, that is my best guess of why that might have happened.

[Wrecking Crew]

So that begs the question of what settings does Wrecking Crew have forced on his computer when he made the missions and what are the settings of the last user to save the mission. Otherwise it doesn't matter what settings you have on the host PC because it will always use whatever is in the mission. You have to go in and change your options, open the mission and just hit "save" and all of the defaults will "sync" with the current PCs game settings.

 

 

I hear what you are saying above - and will Save the mission after both - checking my User/Client settings - and unchecking Use These Settings For All Missions.

 

 

My comment -

The User/Client settings in the *sim* Options -> System and *sim* Options -> Gameplay and for the same reasons - and Options -> Misc and Options -> Special - **should not** affect the Mission Builder -> Mission Options.

 

The settings are not one to one, to begin with.

 

When a customer sets the Sim Options they are setting what they want to use for their in-sim experience and for any constraints of their hardware/system.

 

When a mission designer sets the Mission Editor -> Customize -> Mission Options it is to apply the governance for the mission for everyone and should in no way should be influenced by that mission designer's local Sim Options (which are not 1:1 to each other -- Sim Options:Mission Options).

 

It is illogical to link the user's Sim Options to the Mission Editor -->> Mission Options.

(Another reason why modifying and saving my missions on another computer is chaos.)

 

 

DCS - modify the Mission Builder to only use the Mission Builder -> Customization's -> Mission Options from the mission's editing event. Do Not use the user's Sim -> Options as a default *because higher settings can ruin the sim experience for Clients with older computers.* If the Mission Builder -->> Mission Options are not enforced or set by the mission builder (Scenes, Civ Traffic, etc.) then the joining Client's settings should be used.

 

 

I hope I have this straight, because it has been a PITA to get to this point. I am not a happy camper at this latest version. Except for Ships crashing, v1.1.1.1 did not have these mission problems of v1.2.

 

 

Wrecking Crew

[Wrecking Crew]

Did you use the "load mission" trigger action. For some reason the functionality changed from being a "reference" of the file name to actually saving the mission to load within the current mission file. Without looking at the mission file, that is my best guess of why that might have happened.

 

 

That's fricken crazy.

 

That's most likely the reason. -- edit -- the reason for embedded versions of a mission

 

WC

 

--- edit ---

 

When I save a new version I don't bother to reset the Load Mission trigger, because I know it has to be set after the mission file is transferred to the Firehouse. So I upload the mission to the Firehouse and then open the Mission Editor on the Firehouse and set the Load Mission trigger (there's one in every one of my missions) to the proper path. But then we will also move the mission to the new slmod folder and I don't know if the Load Mission trigger needs to be reset -- prolly does for that path.

 

So we are Saving the mission on different machines in different paths for different reasons -

1. Reinforces my comment about separating the Mission's Options from the User/Client Options that the mission was designed on.

2. STOP auto-modifying the Mission Options on Saves on different computers. (Again, hope I'm following you right.)

Listen up - if Eno's Firehouse has different User/Client settings from my Mission Builder machine's settings then every time I save the Load Mission trigger edits on the Firehouse the mission will pick up Eno's defaults? That's crazy.

 

 

 

WC

Edited December 12, 2012 by Wrecking Crew

[Heli Shed]

Grimes,

Thank you for the detailed reply to Eno's posts and my SimHQ post.

 

Before I respond to your post - I have an observation.

 

The mission is 'WC's Thunder Of Kojori v1.2.2.1j'. This version scheme uses the release of DCS as the first 3 places and my revision follows - '1j'. I can use 7-Zip to unpack the .miz files w/o renaming the extensions to .zip.

 

When I unpack Thunder v1..2.2.1j I see another .miz file - 'WCrew's Thunder Of Kojori v1.2.2.12b.miz'; this is a down-level version of the mission with the older 'WCrew's..' identifier at the beginning of the name, and the old revision scheme; the changes in the latest version were done to shorten the mission names to accommodate the teeny little windows that DCS gives us.

 

When I unpack the 'WCrew's Thunder Of Kojori v1.2.2.12b.miz' there is another .miz file in it! That one is 'WCrew's Thunder Of Kojori v1.2.11x.miz' - a down-level version that I made at the DCS v1.2.1 release.

 

 

Each of these miz files have the two pictures in the mission that adds to the file size and download time each time a mission is Joined.

 

This is just boggling. Why are complete copies of down-level versions in the mission's miz file?

 

I am going to delete the down-level miz files and repack it. And then we'll talk about Options.

 

Wrecking Crew

 

I informed mustang of this a while ago, almost immediatly after 7570 came out.

 

I think it is part of the pre-caching system, in that if another mission is referenced a specific mission, then that mission will be copied inside the .miz file. Have a fairly complex mission with multiple directions the overall campaign could take, and you can see that the mission file will soon mount up. This is the reason why we have seen huge mission files since 7570, except those of us who have relaised this truncating bug.

 

I too have tried deleting the miz's 'inside' the main mission file, but i noticed significant problems of stability of the mission, CTD's, server crashes, client disconnects etc.

 

What i do, is ensure that 'only' one copy of any mission is referenced 'inside' the .miz file by changing it to a .zip and deleting completely any .miz's inside. save the mission file as another name helps, but you have to be very careful about truncating the missions inside the .miz File.

 

You will then have to open the mission again in ME and select the trigger entry for referencing and re-point to the new mission.

 

It's very difficult to explain and im not sure i did explain it well enough to Mustang to be frank.

 

Hope this helps. If you're a little lost still, let me know and i`ll make a vid for you. much easier to explain what im on about like that.

 

Regards

 

'T'

[ENO]

Did you use the "load mission" trigger action. For some reason the functionality changed from being a "reference" of the file name to actually saving the mission to load within the current mission file. Without looking at the mission file, that is my best guess of why that might have happened.

 

 

THAT is VERY interesting... depending on exactly how the load mission actually happens... Because that load trigger is used in many of our missions so they "reload at completion."

 

We've depended on this because for the longest time we weren't able to switch missions until we restarted the whole server- unless it was the SAME mission. So in our case (crew and I work together on this in tandem though we take on somewhat different roles in the hosting of the server), Crew uses the load mission trigger to reload the same mission... and that mission would ostensibly also have the SAME mission triggered... etc.

 

Is it possible that this is causing some sort of broader spectrum issue? Loading a mission that loads a mission that loads a mission that loads a mission... Or am I overanalyzing this potential?

Edited December 12, 2012 by ENO

[Wrecking Crew]

My comment -

The User/Client settings in the *sim* Options -> System and *sim* Options -> Gameplay and for the same reasons - and Options -> Misc and Options -> Special - **should not** affect the Mission Builder -> Mission Options.

 

The settings are not one to one, to begin with.

 

 

If DCS wants to retain the rule that the Mission Editor -->> Mission Options use the User/Client's Sim Options then the affected Mission Editor -->> Mission Options need to be grayed out.

 

WC

[Wrecking Crew]

THAT is VERY interesting...

 

Is it possible that this is causing some sort of broader spectrum issue? Loading a mission that loads a mission that loads a mission that loads a mission... Or am I overanalyzing this potential?

 

Yeah, you are, (I hope I'm not :-) )

But what is happening is that for every Client Join they have to download the whole enchilada. The embedded miz files prolly don't affect the mission settings but sure will affect the download time - and you recently modified the server's Time Out ... ? Because the download times were soo long...

 

Thanks 'T' for the above - but you make it sound like the embedded miz files can tear the fabric of the mission if they are deleted? I extracted all the files from Thunder and deleted the down-level mission miz and then went to reset the files in the top miz but I had to change that to a .zip before I could control the content correctly.

 

WC

Edited December 12, 2012 by Wrecking Crew

[Wrecking Crew]

What i do, is ensure that 'only' one copy of any mission is referenced 'inside' the .miz file by changing it to a .zip and deleting completely any .miz's inside. save the mission file as another name helps, but you have to be very careful about truncating the missions inside the .miz File.

 

You will then have to open the mission again in ME and select the trigger entry for referencing and re-point to the new mission.

 

'T'

 

Understand that completely - same thing where I said I had to change my mission's extension to .zip to control the content.

 

What I did differently was to up the file version before this surgery.

 

WC

[Grimes]

Regarding load mission: There is value in having a mission file embedded into the current mission file. However it is not ideal and I'd prefer the older "reference" version of it back. I'll talk to Speed about adding something like that into slmod as its probably possible. The load mission issue is in the bug tracker.

 

Regarding mission options:

 

Except for Ships crashing, v1.1.1.1 did not have these mission problems of v1.2.

 

If you go back to quad 1 you will find that the mission options still function exactly the same way. The only difference is that the civilian traffic option is currently bugged. I tried several of the other options and all were forced as the desired. So its currently only civilian traffic thats the issue. Its in the bug tracker so the relevant developer is aware of it.

 

As for how mission options are setup:

It is kind of confusing how it is all organized. But note that graphics settings ARE NOT forced on a user. Yes that data is stored in the options, but it just sits there doing nothing. There are a few things that are graphics AND gamplay related such as civilian traffic, scenes, trees, tree shadows, and visibility distance that can be forced on the end user. Obviously one user having buildings render while another has no buildings can cause certain gameplay issues.

 

Edit: forgot to ask

How many nested missions were within your mission and how big was the file size?

Edited December 12, 2012 by Grimes

[Druid_]

I don't think ED ever envisioned people using multiple PCs to create missions (very few have that luxury) but your observations are valid. Although it can't be too hard to make sure the settings you have on both PCs are the same surely?

 

With regard to your load mission trigger, something similar happens with embedding sound files (and any other files also e.g. Lua). Edit the sound file after placing it in the mission trigger and the new version is not automatically included. You have to select a different sound file and then reselect the original one again. It's a limitation of the way the ME works.

 

A possible solution would be to have a refresh or rebuild option on one of the drop down menus. However this may require additional checks and error messages if the files that are referenced are not there for some reason.

[ENO]

For the most part Crew does the designing and the building but as I get more into it, I find I can tap into existing versions of missions to apply "fixes" we discover through the forums.

 

Which configurations are important to preserve between the computers to maintain stability? I mean, we can ensure a mission is configured a certain way in the mission editor... but do the machines themselves need to be configured similarly throughout the design process?

 

IT seems like a silly problem to have- all this just to turn off civ traffic... but it sure seems like the further I get into things the more hopeless the situation feels.

[Grimes]

You might be making a mountain out of a molehill over the severity of the issues in this thread :)

 

If every mission gets re-saved on the host computer before it goes "live" , just make sure all of the settings are set to whatever you want them to be on the host system. Simple as that. The game doesn't care if you keep switching a setting on or off each time you save.

[ENO]

Okay that's easy enough.

 

As for the mountain out of a mole hill- unfortunately each patch does a pretty good job of doing the same.

[Wrecking Crew]

^^^ Bingo

 

I sure don't consider the issues I saw last night to be minor.

A lot of extra work is necessary to save the missions in the right path and then have to go open the miz file to delete the embedded missions, and to set the Civ Traffic and/or other attributes. Even a small change will take an extra 5 minutes through a remote connection to fix the known problem of embedded missions - how long has this been known, anyway? Auto-update a fix for Heaven's sake.

 

And Mission Editor Options need to work without interference from local Client settings.

 

WC

[Grimes]

Technically speaking if the load mission file is embedded into the mission file it will make things easier for you as the file path doesn't matter. In terms of updating the current mission: Why can't you just delete the "load mission" trigger action, and then delete all of the nested missions within, and re-add the load mission action.

 

how long has this been known, anyway? Auto-update a fix for Heaven's sake.

 

Everyone has their favorite bugs they want fixed asap. All we can do is put it in the bug tracker (which it already is) and wait until the relevant developer fixes it.

[Megagoth1702]

 

Hehehe.

[ENO]

Eh Grimes... thanks for your guidance... as megagoth demonstrates in his video this is a stupid problem to have... BUT it IS a problem nonetheless (quote from a favourite movie... anyone know which one?) One that, in a world that insists on rendering everything that happens within it whether it's in view or not- presents farther reaching issues.

 

I'm sure a bit of frustration resonates in some of these messages- and I apologize for that... however... as the devs ask us for patience we as the consumer so too ask for patience occasionally.

[Grimes]

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