GAU-8 against infantry

[sobek]

And with A10C, you're shooting GAU-8 at a DOWNWARD angle. So, any speed it loses due to friction with air, it also gains due to earth's gravity field (G is for gravity, meaning acceleration of about 10 metres per second squared, when in freefall). And it's not starting with zero speed, muzzle velocity is close to the speed of sound (add to that the speed of the aircraft itself!).

 

You forget that air resistance grows with velocity to the second power. At ~1000 m/s (that's roughly three times the speed of sound, not close to), drag is going to be the main force on that bullet, gravity has a minor impact in changing the trajectory, but it won't be anywhere near strong enough to cancel drag.

[ishtmail]

You forget that air resistance grows with velocity to the second power. At ~1000 m/s (that's roughly three times the speed of sound, not close to), drag is going to be the main force on that bullet, gravity has a minor impact in changing the trajectory, but it won't be anywhere near strong enough to cancel drag.

 

According to different air drag models for ballistics, drag coefficient rises significantly at speeds between 0,9 and 1,1 mach, and then start to drop.

 

Muzzle velocity for GAU 8 is about 990 meters per second (for incendiary armor piercing rounds), which is about 3500 kilometers per hour. (I was wrong in my previous post, as I forgot to convert 990 m/s to km/h - it's not CLOSE to the speed of sound, it's well above the speed of sound).

A10C's attack speed is (for example) 300 nautical miles per hour, which is about 550 kilometers per hour.

 

Sum of speeds gives you actual velocity of a bullet fired from an attacking A10C, about 4000 kilometers per second. That's approximately mach 3. At this speed, drag coefficient is almost the same as at speeds of mach 0,1 to 0,5 (and considerably lower than at mach 1,1, where drag coefficient is highest).

 

I don't have the exact ballistic info on the GAU 8 30 mm bullets, so I'm speculating from other available ballistic charts available:

A bullet with the initial speed of 4000 km/h (1100 meters per second) would of course drop its speed quite a bit. But at a range of 3 miles, it would still hit the target with well over 500 km/h speed (140 meters per second).

 

I welcome anyone here to get hit by a hot pointy rock travelling at that speed, if you really think it wouldn't kill you.

[sobek]

At this speed, drag coefficient is almost the same as at speeds of mach 0,1 to 0,5 (and considerably lower than at mach 1,1, where drag coefficient is highest).

 

The drag coefficient may be lower, but velocity is 30 times higher and since the drag equation contains velocity to the second power, that means that drag at mach 3 is 30²=900 times the force of drag at mach 0,1.

[Heli Shed]

A lot of armchair warriors here.

 

And for any of you, like myself who has used the awesome CAS Role of the A10, who have used it or witnessed it will realise that the semantics of this thread are completely irrelevant.

 

I's not only bloody scary, even when being used in support on an enemy position 200 m away, but extremely effective! A10's will always fire within 1 mile. Never have I seen other. That's 5 tours of combat duty gents, not stuck in an office.

 

When we assaulted and cleared what was left, was very single enemy lying there with a neat hole through them as we tend to believe from sycophantic crap from Hollywood?

 

No.

 

They were decimated. And the bits that were left were peppered with holes and wounds from shrapnel, the definition being shards from not just the projectile casing, but anything that is 'hit' at the other end, including bits of vehicles, buildings and in one case a large piece of what looked like a dustbin lid.

 

Fact is, and semantics aside, you don't wanna be anywhere near those rounds as they hit.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Tyger

[Heli Shed]

weird, i use HEI and 1 second burst from Angels 3 about 1 mile out (using TGP to Set SPI on HUD to Target), I can take out anything not armoured within a 40-50 foot radius.

For sure.

 

Spread and ROF and velocity of initial firing point = a whole world of hurt! This is replicated well in the sim.

[danilop]

I was trained and served on 2x30mm weapon ( AA M53/59 - 30x210 round) back in my military days - it was practically useles as AAA (optical sighting sistem was crap), but you honestly don't want to know what that round does to soft and lightly armed ground targets :)

 

Uber effective!

 

 

Now, the rate of fire of GAU-8 is 10 times greater, so ... :helpsmilie: :lol:

Edited December 28, 2012 by danilop

[Mojeaux]

I just love the way you tied a ribbion around that one Tyger...+1

 

A lot of armchair warriors here.

 

And for any of you, like myself who has used the awesome CAS Role of the A10, who have used it or witnessed it will realise that the semantics of this thread are completely irrelevant.

 

I's not only bloody scary, even when being used in support on an enemy position 200 m away, but extremely effective! A10's will always fire within 1 mile. Never have I seen other. That's 5 tours of combat duty gents, not stuck in an office.

 

When we assaulted and cleared what was left, was very single enemy lying there with a neat hole through them as we tend to believe from sycophantic crap from Hollywood?

 

No.

 

They were decimated. And the bits that were left were peppered with holes and wounds from shrapnel, the definition being shards from not just the projectile casing, but anything that is 'hit' at the other end, including bits of vehicles, buildings and in one case a large piece of what looked like a dustbin lid.

 

Fact is, and semantics aside, you don't wanna be anywhere near those rounds as they hit.

[Megagoth1702]

A lot of armchair warriors here.

 

And for any of you, like myself who has used the awesome CAS Role of the A10, who have used it or witnessed it will realise that the semantics of this thread are completely irrelevant.

 

I's not only bloody scary, even when being used in support on an enemy position 200 m away, but extremely effective! A10's will always fire within 1 mile. Never have I seen other. That's 5 tours of combat duty gents, not stuck in an office.

 

When we assaulted and cleared what was left, was very single enemy lying there with a neat hole through them as we tend to believe from sycophantic crap from Hollywood?

 

No.

 

They were decimated. And the bits that were left were peppered with holes and wounds from shrapnel, the definition being shards from not just the projectile casing, but anything that is 'hit' at the other end, including bits of vehicles, buildings and in one case a large piece of what looked like a dustbin lid.

 

Fact is, and semantics aside, you don't wanna be anywhere near those rounds as they hit.

 

 

I would love some realism based information on that.

Thank you sir. :)

 

Still - even if they fired from 1mile all the time - is 2-3 miles a possible solution if you wanna cover a big area?

[ishtmail]

Tyger, thanks for the first-hand experience.

 

I just want to note that my theoretical post did NOT talk about the proper cannon shooting procedure and normal shooting distance that an actual real life A10C pilot goes for. So, not a debate about whether an A10C pilot WOULD shoot his cannon from 3 miles away.

 

I was only debating the idea that a 30mm bullet from a GAU-8 cannon, shot by a flying A10C from a 3 mile distance, still can KILL a target (under the assumption it HITS that target). This was a completely hypothetical situation that some virtual A10C pilots seem to recreate within DCS World, while some people say that that bullet shot at that distance would have no more penetrating energy than a rock (which I don't agree with).

[Heli Shed]

Tyger, thanks for the first-hand experience.

 

I just want to note that my theoretical post did NOT talk about the proper cannon shooting procedure and normal shooting distance that an actual real life A10C pilot goes for. So, not a debate about whether an A10C pilot WOULD shoot his cannon from 3 miles away.

 

I was only debating the idea that a 30mm bullet from a GAU-8 cannon, shot by a flying A10C from a 3 mile distance, still can KILL a target (under the assumption it HITS that target). This was a completely hypothetical situation that some virtual A10C pilots seem to recreate within DCS World, while some people say that that bullet shot at that distance would have no more penetrating energy than a rock (which I don't agree with).

 

Sure, i get it. Thought you wanted to know the realities of it.

 

Basically, ive always seen them and they've always been within a mile, certainly closer by the time they release the dragon!

 

It would all depend on how close FF were to the contact point. The further away they are, the more the pilot is likely to increase range, but accuracy is extremely important too - collateral damage causes a great deal of heartache, not to mention bad PR!

 

Pilots are under a ROE too, and even when giving CAS to a TIC, they MUST be able to P ID their Tgt too.

 

So, the truth is they probably can let rip at 3miles, but never would. Here though? what the hell................

 

;-)

 

thanks.

 

'T'

[ishtmail]

This is actually a great opportunity for virtual pilots to 'learn the ropes' of real life procedures.

 

While virtual flying doesn't represent any danger to anyone (as in 'collateral damage' or 'friendly fire'), it would be pretty cool if we all acknowledge that the virtual A10C that we fly in DCS World is SO REALISTIC, that maybe we should also (at least try to) adhere to real world procedures, regulations and common sense.

 

For example, shooting that cannon from 1 mile or less :)

[159th_Viper]

For example, shooting that cannon from 1 mile or less :)

 

Depends on the circumstances of every engagement. Try the '1 mile or less' rule against a BMP-3 platoon and be prepared for a hiding.

[Heli Shed]

Depends on the circumstances of every engagement. Try the '1 mile or less' rule against a BMP-3 platoon and be prepared for a hiding.

 

Absolutely, but then again, who would?

 

Maximum stand off distance should always be used in accordance with tgt type. Mav's, bomb's or even rockets would be better employed in this circumstance, but a Pl of BMP's needs gievn respect - that can be up to 9 BMP's in a conventional sense (ie fire team per vehicle).

 

:helpsmilie:

[ARM505]

...and again, we butt heads with DCS's poor handling of shrapnel effects vs soft targets. To be fair, most PC simulations have the exact same issues, so it's certainly not something that's DCS exclusive, and shortcuts have to be taken to spare the old CPU. It has gotten better since the original Lock on, where rockets and cannon fire pretty much had to be a direct hit to do anything at all.

[Eddie]

Although Tyger has already described why you wouldn't fire from 3-4nm miles away, I'll add what the tactics manuals say about gun attacks.

 

Low Angle Strafe (LAS)

Planned dive angle at delivery of 15 degrees or less. Minimum range to target is 2,000 feet. Minimum recovery altitude is 75 feet AGL. Number of rounds per event is 100.

 

High Angle Strafe (HAS)

Planned dive angle of greater than 15 degrees. Minimum recovery altitudes are 1,000 feet AGL for planned dive angles 30 degrees or less and 1,500 feet AGL for planned dive angles above 30 degrees. Minimum range to target is 2,000 feet. Number of rounds per event is 100.

 

Long Range Strafe (LRS)

Planned dive angle of 15 degrees or less. Minimum range to target is 5,000 feet for computed delivery or 3,000 feet for manual delivery.

 

Two-Target Strafe (TTS)

Planned dive angle of 15 degrees or less. Minimum range is 2,000 feet and minimum recovery altitude is 75 feet AGL. Number of rounds per event is 100.

 

Now you'l probably notice that only min ranges are stated, this is because max ranges are pretty much "common sense" (something that seem to be lacking around here when it comes to tactics and weapon employment) and related to the type of attack and the target.

 

The 3-3 does not mention specific "maximum" ranges, but it does state "normal" firing ranges for all attack types, and none of them are beyond 12,000 feet.

 

The firing range varies depending on the target, but the max range planned for any delivery is 12,000 ft (2nm). Any further out and the dispersion of rounds at the target is such that the attack is unlikely to be "effective".

 

While it's true that for HEI rounds employed against soft skinned vehicles and dismounted infantry the kinetic energy of the rounds is not a factor, dispersion most certainly is. 100 rounds of HEI fired from 3-4miles will have a dispersion such that the attack would be unlikely to eliminate all targets. The same attack from within the 6,000ft however would produce a much higher bullet density at the target, and therefore be more effective.

 

The only truly accurate way to determine a specific number for the firing range for a given delivery is via the mission planning software, something that we'll never see in the sim world (even if we did, few would be able to make use of it). There is work ongoing within the 476th to develop a weapon delivery planner which gives all the values you need to perform a proper weapon delivery (using real world weapon data), but it's going to be a while before it's complete and if it'll be made public is still to be determined.

 

Now, you guys can continue to discus whatever video game "tactics" you like, but the real world publications say what they do for very good reasons.

 

As for BMP's, when done correctly LRS or even HAS attacks are very effective and put the delivery aircraft at minimal risk from the target. However, as Tyger alluded to, it comes down to weapon selection. It's the flight lead's job (or the individual pilot in SP or for those who don't use realistic TTP's in MP) to determine the correct weapon to be employed against a given target and the delivery type to be used based on the type of target, its location and layout and the known and likely threats.

 

Contrary to popular belief the AGM-65 is not solely there to take out air defences, it's there to provides a stand-off engagement capability. Also contrary to popular belief, the gun does not have to be used on every mission, if it isn't the best weapon for the job it doesn't get used.

[Eddie]

but a Pl of BMP's needs gievn respect - that can be up to 9 BMP's in a conventional sense (ie fire team per vehicle).

 

Doctrinally speaking a Russian Mechanised Infantry Platoon normally has 3 BMP-1/2/3, with a company having 10 or 11 (including command element). Although I don't recall how many infantry are in a Russian section (maybe you do?).

 

Although it gets worse, a MI brigade has around 180 of the buggers in addition to 50 MBTs and various attached light armour and artillery assets. And enough air defences to really ruin your day (8 SA-15 and over 60 SA-18/24), and that is just the embedded AD, there's normally more attached AD as well.

 

Put that lot in a mission, along with an MBT brigade with all the associated kit and it'll make people re-evaluate their tactics VERY quickly. I have done so (approx 1200 units), and it certainly makes your ring twitch when you're approaching the FEBA.

[Heli Shed]

Yep, for sure"

 

A great post there eddie with the tech info.

 

Regards

 

'T'

 

PS: A russian Inf Pl can be anything up to 30 including their Pl HQ element. more often than not slightly larger than this to account for specialists at Pl level, Light mortarman, signaller, 'Chief Medic', yadda yadda. The Russian construction of even a Pl nowadays is not that far off our own in the West. A Pl is a Pl. A bit like a AK is an AK.

 

Doesn't matter whether it's the russian or chineese variants, its an AK.

[Hoggorm]

Nice input from various persons in this thread. It has been interesting to follow. Thank you all.

I tried one of the methods described; to run in and shoot at about 1 mile. It works, since I am able to kill one or two soldiers on every run. Shooting from a longer distance I have not been able to kill any previously. I still find it much more difficult to kill a soldier than a truck though and that I find a bit strange...

Being the thread starter, I would still like to ask one final question:

Based on the information in this thread - is the GAU-8 working as it should against infantry, or should it be adjusted?

[159th_Viper]

Working as it should - no need for adjustment.