F-15C radar: too many user errors!!

[Oberst Zeisig]

Yeah I know it works hitting BVR button or radar on/off, the point is here that the narrow azimuth settings of tws are still kept and I do want to have the wide radar zone (whole 120 deg) at once to get a quick overview again when I chose to disengage one target that probably went defensive. I think thats essential in an mp-environment with several opponents.

[blkspade]

Yeah I know it works hitting BVR button or radar on/off, the point is here that the narrow azimuth settings of tws are still kept and I do want to have the wide radar zone (whole 120 deg) at once to get a quick overview again when I chose to disengage one target that probably went defensive. I think thats essential in an mp-environment with several opponents.

 

That does happen sometime, but I have scan width also mapped on my stick as I manual do narrow scans in RWS from time to time.

[rassy7]

... So its possible to delay/prevent that ability by giving up either altitude or speed. Since your radar will the display the bandits ground speed as well as your own, you can decrease your speed within reason to maintain your altitude advantage and radar lock. The most obvious advantage here is a bandit trying to notch can't tell how fast you're going, and with tws they can't be absolutely sure that you still have them bugged.

 

I thought with doppler radar, entering the notch depended on the target's speed approaching you relative to the speed the ground is approaching you (radar would begin to see the target as part of the ground). So putting the sky behind the target makes sense but how would giving up speed prevent or delay the target's ability to notch? Wouldn't a slight heading adjustment make more sense?

[GGTharos]

Correct, the notch has to do with the target's closure with respect to your ground-speed.

 

It doesn't matter if you're going 0KTAS or 1000000 KTAS, as long as the bandit's closure becomes the same, +/- the notch gate. Slowing down means you can enter the notch gate with less angular precision.

[blkspade]

I thought with doppler radar, entering the notch depended on the target's speed approaching you relative to the speed the ground is approaching you (radar would begin to see the target as part of the ground). So putting the sky behind the target makes sense but how would giving up speed prevent or delay the target's ability to notch? Wouldn't a slight heading adjustment make more sense?

 

I only suggested it because I actually apply it quite regularly in game against non-jamming bandits in both single and multiplayer. Given the nature of how typical MiG and Su pilots fly and defensive maneuvering, its rarely practical/possible to get under them. There really isn't of radar gimbal for a heading adjustment to maintain a lock. I find it useful when I see them going for the notch ahead of pitbull, or to keep an AIM-7 on track. If need be you'll have room for your own defensive maneuvers and diving will give you speed back. Not to mention that if you get launched on from the deck you can lead the missile into the ground. Ideally he'll turn cold WVR, without a wingman, you can press and finish him off using that altitude advantage for speed and/or denying terrain masking.

[rassy7]

Ok. So you're suggesting surrendering speed even prior to firing actually CAN give an advantage, just not directly related to preventing an enemy from notching. I suppose even with their off-boresight weapons and hemlet lock, SU's will have to turn back into you somewhat to get off a shot and make themselves visible to radar again.

[GGTharos]

It's about reducing closure, not surrendering speed. I strongly suggest doing the math on this one - it's just a bit of easy trig :)

 

Calculate closure from angle and speed. You still don't really want to be below combat speed, since this gives you evasive maneuvering energy and it is a good spot to accelerate from. Accelerating from really slow speeds takes really long. With jet engines, the faster you go, the faster you go faster! At combat speed you're usually at the peak of the power curve.

[blkspade]

No, you definitely want your initial shot to be fired with as much speed as possible. Slow down once its off the rail. Also you should never fire 2 120s at the same bandit while accelerating, with less than 6 seconds of separation. Otherwise they maneuver into each other and explode, when the bandit goes defensive. You want to not be using afterburner if you're within 12nm of Russian bandit head-on anyway. If you get him defensive at that range, keep him defensive. At 8nm 120s are likely to be pitbull off the rail, so an AIM-7 right behind it has a high Pk if the bandit doesn't refuses to turn cold. Inside of that range 1v1 you might as well press, because disengaging will leave you vulnerable to an ET if he recommits.

[blkspade]

This is why I initially said to reduce speed within reason.

 

It's about reducing closure, not surrendering speed. I strongly suggest doing the math on this one - it's just a bit of easy trig :)

 

Calculate closure from angle and speed. You still don't really want to be below combat speed, since this gives you evasive maneuvering energy and it is a good spot to accelerate from. Accelerating from really slow speeds takes really long. With jet engines, the faster you go, the faster you go faster! At combat speed you're usually at the peak of the power curve.

[Crescendo]

At 8nm 120s are likely to be pitbull off the rail, so an AIM-7 right behind it has a high Pk if the bandit doesn't refuses to turn cold.

 

Please explain this sentence because I don't understand it at all. I can't see the connection. What does being within 'off-the-rail' AIM-120 pitbull range have to do with the AIM-7? What is the meaning of "doesn't refuses to turn cold"? Isn't that just turning cold?

 

My understanding of this sentence is that you are saying one should fire a pitbull AIM-120 at ~8 NM, quickly followed by an AIM-7 "right behind it", provided the bandit is cold? Why? Is the AIM-7 a better tail-chase missile? 8 NM is awfully far in a tail-chase scenario, and when missiles are spaced that closely one defensive maneuver will defeat both.

[104th_Maverick]

If the bandit refuses to turn cold = the bandit is not turning round to run away and is still pushing on you... which means 'hot'

 

'Hot' bandits are flying straight at you,

'Cold' bandits have turned around and are flying away from you.

 

So Spade is talking about firing the Aim7 after the Aim120 if the bandit has not turned round and started to run away after you have fired the Aim120 at him.

[Crescendo]

I know what hot and cold mean in a fighter pilot context, that's not the issue I'm having.

 

To me, the way you described it is not the way blkspade wrote it. He said "doesn't refuses to turn cold", which is a double negative, so it actually means the bandit is cold.

 

Besides, in blkspde's scenario as you interpreted it, why would someone fire the semi-active AIM-7 at a hot bandit within 8 NM? That's just asking to be killed. At that point you're already too close and should be slinging a pitbull AIM-120, and then notching or pumping.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Crescendo

[104th_Maverick]

As I interpret it? This is what he says....

 

At 8nm 120s are likely to be pitbull off the rail, so an AIM-7 right behind it has a high Pk if the bandit doesn't refuses to turn cold.

 

I did not make up firing the Aim7, he is talking about firing an Aim 7 after firing an Aim120 when a bandit is at 8nm. This increases the PK from only firing one Aim120.

 

The double negative thing I'm sure is a typo/mistake, I fly with Spade all the time and I know exactly what he is talking about, there is just some confusion here with regards to this double negative you mentioned.

 

You do not always have to notch / run after an Aim120 goes pitbull. Most of the time you 'should' be doing this however it is not always in your best interests, not going defensive or into the notch and committing to WVR is known as going 'Banzai'. So firing an Aim7 after an Aim120 at close range could be termed as going 'Banzai' as your committing to get closer to the bandit.

Edited November 7, 2013 by [Maverick]

[Crescendo]

I think we are talking past each other a bit.

 

I don't understand what you mean by "I did not make up firing the Aim7". I didn't say you did make it up, and in all my posts I agree that blkspade is describing firing an AIM-7.

 

he is talking about firing an Aim 7 after firing an Aim120 when a bandit is at 8nm

I don't get that vibe from blkspade's post.

 

He said:

 

At 8nm 120s are likely to be pitbull off the rail, so an AIM-7 right behind it has a high Pk if the bandit doesn't refuses to turn cold

This is an ambiguous statement. It seems to imply that he is not firing an AIM-120 at 8NM, but if that's true, what exactly is the AIM-7 "right behind"?

 

If he fired an AIM-120 at long range at the start of the engagement (say 20NM), then firing a follow-up AIM-7 at 8NM cannot be reasonably be described as "right behind", at least in my opinion. To the above quote reads like he fires a pitbull AIM-120 at 8NM and an AIM-7 8NM "right after" it.

 

To be clear, I am not intending to come off as difficult and pedantic, nor am I trying to score points by being 'right'. I hope I don't come off that way. Really blkspade needs to come back and clarify his post.

 

As for going "banzai", I agree, you can do it, but I still think it's a good way to get killed or to ensure a boring mutual kill, especially in typical MP 'airquake' situations. People online have no sense of self-preservation and love to spam their missiles to get that precious kill, even if it means they stay suicidally hot.

 

It's much better to sling missiles high and fast, F-pole, then notch/pump if the bandit insists on flying into your missiles. Even better, have a wingman to bracket/grinder/delouse/whatever with.

[blkspade]

What happens is the bandit will likely break to go for the notch, or occasionally pull some other slick maneuver that will cause the 120 to miss. Some pilots are very efficient at dodging the 120. The AIM-120 and AIM-7 take 2 entirely different flight paths and maneuver differently. Because of this a technique used to defeat one is unlikely to work for both. It depends on the situation the bandit presents and what they are flying at the same time, and reacting faster than him to get the missile off the rail. Once again if you are not in AB at this range he will have trouble getting an ET to track. Best when used against a Su-27 or 33 rather than a MiG likely to fire an R-77.

Edited November 7, 2013 by blkspade

[blkspade]

Some caveats are that you've scanned the area ahead of time and can be reasonably sure there aren't any other bandit particularly close. Seeing as you don't always have a wingman. At the aforementioned range if the bandit hasn't returned fire, I like to keep my eyes on him. The range quickly dwindles down to 5nm or less and trying to pick up a bandit that close on radar that you lost sight of is difficult. If he goes completely defensive, you can choose to press or extend. The ones that go for the notch and succeed, you can be sure to break back into you. Its basically the point of no return if you end up that close in an F-15 vs the Russian jets. If you don't get the kill but force him cold, that extra 90 degrees could mean a lot for you escaping an ET if he comes around.

[Grinch]

As for going "banzai", I agree, you can do it, but I still think it's a good way to get killed or to ensure a boring mutual kill, especially in typical MP 'airquake' situations. People online have no sense of self-preservation and love to spam their missiles to get that precious kill, even if it means they stay suicidally hot.

 

This is my biggest problem with simplified models and FC3 in DCSW. Aircraft are disposable when you can get back in the air in 30 seconds or less. I really don't want to incorporate limited aircraft at bases. I may loadout FC3 aircraft with zero fuel and make players at least sit through a refuel upon spawning.

[will-]

Hello everyone! This is the first time I write on the forum and greet all of you who read me. It 'a pleasure.

I am a fan of simulators (of all kinds) and I follow the simulations of DCS for a long time (from the first product: the legendary Su-27 Flanker for Windows 95).

I recently tried FC3 (1.2.2.7570) and more specifically, I tried a mission created by myself with the editor in which I - with an F-15C - proceeded to intercept head-on three Mig-23.

So, my intention is to test the functions of the radar of the F-15C to understand what was optimized/simulated.

In my opinion, that there is something wrong.

At 40 mn I switched VSD to TWS, I have selected the three tracks for the priority launch, and at 20 mn, I started to launch the AIM-120B. When first missile started, all tracks have disappeared and the radar is automatically returned in VSD mode. OK! Very well, I started the mission again.

This time I started missile launch procedure between 40 and 20 mn. Two MiGs were shot down and the third passed me, so I made ​​the turn (no blackout, I reduced my velocity). I tried to lock it back but there was no way!! I even managed to get on his trail (high altitude) and the radar (VSD, TWS, AAQ set to 10 mn) has never been able to lock the Mig!! (the Mig's pilot had the command and it was not without control). OK, try again.

Well, I tried a third time this simple mission and I got even a different result.

I still have shot down two of the three Mig in TWS mode (and this just should make us think: an F-15C that at a distance of 80 mn head-on fails to knock down three targets ... are worrying!!). The third Mig, distant a little more than 20 mn, it was still locked, when suddenly disappeared from the radar and there was no way to lock it up again. The fight ended with the Mig-23 (or was it a masked F-22!?) That launch a R-60 shooting down my useless F-15C!!!

Now, I'm not a rookie of simulators and I'd really like to know why no one has ever noticed that these are much more than simple imperfections: If the radar of an F-15C worked so well, a couple of piper could take down one.

We hope in future developments.:helpsmilie:

If I'm understanding you correctly your tracking 3 bandits between 80nm-20nm and lanuching 4 120b's?

 

Try this, start tracking those 3 mig's at 35nm. launch 120C's! At 12-8nm with proper altitude and line of sight(flat ground, no mountains.)

 

Yes DCS is a sim. But it is also a video game. How the systems work are not reflected of real life radar, we all know this. Until someone makes a real air-air radar...

 

Just from playing the game you can feel what works. Each missile has its own behavior. And lanuching at 20 nm more often will lead you to a team kill rather than a bandit.

 

Simple verison.

[Oberst Zeisig]

Did work for You yesterday evening at the 51st as You only got killed once. Guess by whom. ;):harhar:

 

 

Some caveats are that you've scanned the area ahead of time and can be reasonably sure there aren't any other bandit particularly close. Seeing as you don't always have a wingman. At the aforementioned range if the bandit hasn't returned fire, I like to keep my eyes on him. The range quickly dwindles down to 5nm or less and trying to pick up a bandit that close on radar that you lost sight of is difficult. If he goes completely defensive, you can choose to press or extend. The ones that go for the notch and succeed, you can be sure to break back into you. Its basically the point of no return if you end up that close in an F-15 vs the Russian jets. If you don't get the kill but force him cold, that extra 90 degrees could mean a lot for you escaping an ET if he comes around.

[Pyroflash]

If I'm understanding you correctly your tracking 3 bandits between 80nm-20nm and lanuching 4 120b's?

 

Try this, start tracking those 3 mig's at 35nm. launch 120C's! At 12-8nm with proper altitude and line of sight(flat ground, no mountains.)

 

Yes DCS is a sim. But it is also a video game. How the systems work are not reflected of real life radar, we all know this. Until someone makes a real air-air radar...

 

Just from playing the game you can feel what works. Each missile has its own behavior. And lanuching at 20 nm more often will lead you to a team kill rather than a bandit.

 

Simple verison.

 

Why? I mean, unless you bittersweet at teammates often. ~20 nm at 20'k+ is a pretty good range to start the engagement. You have to put the bandit(s) on the defensive early, and range will close to ~15nm during the crank where follow up shots have a higher pk. At inside 8nm, the AMRAAM should be an almost guaranteed kill. Still find it pretty weak that it has an RTR of around that range, because TBH, three more miles and you are inside the head on heaters WEZ.

 

Aside from that, your support should be slightly behind you, or even with you at the time of launch. If he is in the flight path of the missile, then something went wrong, and he needs to be GETTING THE HECK OUT OF THERE. If he is in front of you, and the engagement forces you to fox at undesirable risk to friendly forces, make sure that you maintain lock with the bandit until pitbull, probably all the way, or at least until your wing is clear. The most important thing to do at this point would be to communicate the potential threat to your team, and make sure they get to a position where the missile is unlikely to threaten them. If you cannot do this, you have other, more pressing issues.

[Haukka81]

Why? I mean, unless you bittersweet at teammates often. ~20 nm at 20'k+ is a pretty good range to start the engagement. You have to put the bandit(s) on the defensive early, and range will close to ~15nm during the crank where follow up shots have a higher pk. At inside 8nm, the AMRAAM should be an almost guaranteed kill. Still find it pretty weak that it has an RTR of around that range, because TBH, three more miles and you are inside the head on heaters WEZ.

 

Aside from that, your support should be slightly behind you, or even with you at the time of launch. If he is in the flight path of the missile, then something went wrong, and he needs to be GETTING THE HECK OUT OF THERE. If he is in front of you, and the engagement forces you to fox at undesirable risk to friendly forces, make sure that you maintain lock with the bandit until pitbull, probably all the way, or at least until your wing is clear. The most important thing to do at this point would be to communicate the potential threat to your team, and make sure they get to a position where the missile is unlikely to threaten them. If you cannot do this, you have other, more pressing issues.

 

 

They should not get launch warning if you shoot tws mode, util missile go active and them its too late.

 

But can say for sure how it works in FC3

[Pyroflash]

They should not get launch warning if you shoot tws mode, util missile go active and them its too late.

 

But can say for sure how it works in FC3

 

Yes, but at 20nm, it doesn't matter right now. The missiles are extremely easy to evade with proper maneuvering and some chaff. When launched on in TWS, ideally, you already have your missiles in the air, and the bandit is threatened. If you have to go defensive active, then your flight should be there to continue to threaten the bandit instead of giving him room to breathe. Inside 10 miles, things get a little more hairy. Ranges start to close fast, and you've got to decide on how you want to proceed.

 

Yes, TWS is a tool, and your RWR won't give a launch warning, **BUT**, you should be expecting a TWS launch from a capable platform anyways, so the defensive maneuvering should be largely pre-emptive as if you had gotten the warning anyways.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Pyroflash

[blkspade]

Did work for You yesterday evening at the 51st as You only got killed once. Guess by whom. ;):harhar:

 

You mad dogged that 77 I'm sure, and got lucky... LOL. You were probably the one MiG I lost low that I had hoped my wingman would pick up. You guys were putting that EWR to good use.

[VanjaB]

Just wanted to chime in on this thread. Im learning all I can about the F15C's Rayethon radar systems and tactics ahead of the standalone F15C release, I have to say this thread has been very helpful with getting my head wrapped with how the radar works and which tactics are useful in BVR and how to use them. Ive mostly got the theory figured out and combined with some very good youtube tutorial videos, a little bit about the practical side of things as well.

 

One quick question, does FC3 feature interactive training missions or are they of the non-interactive kind? (I assume that the standalone module will get the same missions as the FC3 version)

[Pyroflash]

Just wanted to chime in on this thread. Im learning all I can about the F15C's Rayethon radar systems and tactics ahead of the standalone F15C release, I have to say this thread has been very helpful with getting my head wrapped with how the radar works and which tactics are useful in BVR and how to use them. Ive mostly got the theory figured out and combined with some very good youtube tutorial videos, a little bit about the practical side of things as well.

 

One quick question, does FC3 feature interactive training missions or are they of the non-interactive kind? (I assume that the standalone module will get the same missions as the FC3 version)

 

Yes, it features interactive training.