Radar question...

[fitness88]

Flying the MIG-29s.

• what is the difference while being in BVR and having the radar ON vs. radar ACTIVE
  
• the r77 missile as well as some others can be fired with EOS and/or RADAR indicator on the HUD, does it have both IR and ACTIVE HOMING guidence and if so which would control the missile's flight
  

Thank you.

Edited January 12, 2013 by fitness88

[falcon_120]

Having the radar on and active is the same thing.

The R77 missile is an active medium range air to air missile.It needs

a radar lock(STT or TWS) to be launched, and once in a certain range of the target

it will activate his own radar and will continue on his own.

You can't launch an r77 with the EOS, well maybe you could maddog it but I'm not sure

as I only fly the F15 for now.

[Manuel]

AFAIK there are 3 type of missiles:

 

Fox 1: Semi active radar guided missiles, such as Aim7

Fox 2: IR guided missiles such as Aim9

Fox 3: Active radar guided missiles such as Aim120

 

So if R77 is an active seeking missile, it has its own radar seeker and therefor does not need the lock of the aircraft.

 

 

 

Having the radar on and active is the same thing.

The R77 missile is an active medium range air to air missile.It needs

a radar lock(STT or TWS) to be launched, and once in a certain range of the target

it will activate his own radar and will continue on his own.

You can't launch an r77 with the EOS, well maybe you could maddog it but I'm not sure

as I only fly the F15 for now.

[falcon_120]

AFAIK there are 3 type of missiles:

 

Fox 1: Semi active radar guided missiles, such as Aim7

Fox 2: IR guided missiles such as Aim9

Fox 3: Active radar guided missiles such as Aim120

 

So if R77 is an active seeking missile, it has its own radar seeker and therefor does not need the lock of the aircraft.

 

It needs the radar to get MCU till it is close enough to use his own radar. In close air combat where the launch distance is close enough for the missile to go autonomous directly after launch it still need the aircraft radar in first place to get the target information.Otherwise the chance of shooting down a friendly grows. But you could launch it on his own yes, though as I said before the pk decrease dramatically.

[falcon_120]

If you are familiar with the use of the aim120 amraam, everything applies quite well to the use of the r77. I would recomend a glance to the FC3 Manual,to understand the principles.

[fitness88]

Thank you all for your responses.

Below from the manual:

 

'The "И" symbol on the left side of the HUD indicates that the radar is turned on and

actively transmitting.'

I thought it meant radar turned on was one function and radar actively transmitting being an optional separate function.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

What I was referring to below:

'the r77 missile as well as some others can be fired with EOS and/or RADAR indicator on the HUD, does it have both IR and ACTIVE HOMING guidence and if so which would control the missile's flight'

 

I understand the technical principles of Fox 1-sem-active Fox 2-IR Fox 3-active

I was referring to:

EOS and RADAR indicators can both be on the HUD at the same time. Why would that occur if a missile can only be slaved by only one of these systems?

For example the 27t is IR and uses the plane's EOS or it can be boresight launched using its own internal IR seeker.

However, I have also fired 27t missiles successfully using radar lock. I suspect it would then use its own internal IR onced launched?

From the manual: The R-27T must have infrared seeker lock on the target before launch.

Edited January 12, 2013 by fitness88

[falcon_120]

Thank you all for your responses.

Below from the manual:

 

'The "И" symbol on the left side of the HUD indicates that the radar is turned on and

actively transmitting.'

I thought it meant radar turned on was one function and radar actively transmitting being an optional separate function.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

What I was referring to below:

'the r77 missile as well as some others can be fired with EOS and/or RADAR indicator on the HUD, does it have both IR and ACTIVE HOMING guidence and if so which would control the missile's flight'

 

I understand the technical principles of Fox 1-sem-active Fox 2-IR Fox 3-active

I was referring to:

EOS and RADAR indicators can both be on the HUD at the same time. Why would that occur if a missile can only be slaved by only one of these systems?

For example the 27t is IR and uses the plane's EOS or it can be boresight launched using its own internal IR seeker.

However, I have also fired 27t missiles successfully using radar lock. I suspect it would then use its own internal IR onced launched?

From the manual: The R-27T must have infrared seeker lock on the target before launch.

 

Well, I correct myself, IRL a radar can be turned on but not actively transmitting(at least this is true for the f16 for example,and other western planes),so your question does make sense. But in FC3 with some simplifications on avionics,if you turn your radar on it will also be transmitting.

 

On your second question, yes the EOS and Radar can be on at the same time, but for you to give launch information to the r77 the radar must be on,as it won't get any information from the EOS.

IR missiles like the r27t, r73 or even the aim9 in the f15 behave a bit diferent as the radar can tell their seeker where to look, though as you say they need a lock before launch.

Why would you want the EOS and the radar working at the same time? I don't know,that question is for someone with more knowledge on this, but personally I see no reason as I don't think that the radar and EOS information can be joined in the hud,you get one or the other.

In modern fighters like the eurofighter you get fusion of sensors and then you might want the radar and the IRST to be on to gather information from more sources, but not in the flanker or fulcrum simulated in FC3.

[Bandit.]

having a target locked with both radar and eos is possible ad can be useful. it allows you to fire any type of missile, if you indeed have a lock with both sensors. once you have radar lock you can turn eos on. this however does not mean you have eos lock. the only way i know of verifying that you in fact have lock with both sensors is to switch between missile types. if you get a launch queue you have a lock (naturally if you override the launch authorized its meaningless) . what you cant do is scan with both systems at the same time.

[fitness88]

having a target locked with both radar and eos is possible ad can be useful. it allows you to fire any type of missile, if you indeed have a lock with both sensors. once you have radar lock you can turn eos on. this however does not mean you have eos lock. the only way i know of verifying that you in fact have lock with both sensors is to switch between missile types. if you get a launch queue you have a lock (naturally if you override the launch authorized its meaningless) . what you cant do is scan with both systems at the same time.

 

Very helpful Bandit I never thought of doing that, thanks.

When I get a long range radar lock I try and change over ASAP to EOS for stealth approach by slewing the EOS to the last known position and use the 27t.

BUT:

In FC2 I was able to adjust the angle of my EOS to its full horizontal and vertical gimble ranges but I can't seem to get that scanning happening in FC3?

[Grigs]

Other possibility: In WVR (especialy) engagements with several planes in the air (friends and foes), you can scan using EOS. If you got a bogey and you lock it, then switch radar on (and off if you want to go silent again) to determine wether it is a friend or hostile

[fitness88]

Other possibility: In WVR (especialy) engagements with several planes in the air (friends and foes), you can scan using EOS. If you got a bogey and you lock it, then switch radar on (and off if you want to go silent again) to determine wether it is a friend or hostile

 

So are you saying that the EOS silently slaves the RADAR to where its pointing and the Radar slaves the EOS to where its pointing, automatically?

 

How are you scanning up/down left/right with EOS flying MIG-29s?

As mentioned below:

In FC2 I was able to adjust the angle of my EOS to its full horizontal and vertical gimble ranges but I can't seem to get that scanning happening in FC3?

[Grigs]

Well I do not know how it works actually. But I was never mistaken by doing so in FC2.

 

If you have got an EOS lock and then turn radar on, after a few seconds (time for the radar to scan) you should have the correct informations.

[fitness88]

Not automatically that I know of. For example last night on the 51st Server I was flying a Su-27 from Gudauta North-East and I was trying to be silent and staying low using EOS "O" key. I got a return from a friendly Su-25T (I think on the ground still) at Sokhumi and locked it in EOS mode; then I switched on my radar with the "I" key (having learned a lesson long ago in FC2 with Friendly Fire) and it was a solid circle meaning friendly. Then I switched off the radar again with "I" and continued on.

 

Currently there is a bug with EOS tilt but it is fixed in the next upcoming patch.

RESOLVED:

18 - EOS scanning not functional in elevation

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=96987&page=80

 

EDIT: (after some tests)

 

Radar On > Lock Target > Slave to EOS with "O" = Radar Still ON in EOS Mode * Use "I" to turn off the Radar and go silent (off the enemy's RWR)

EOS On > Lock Target > Slave to Radar with "I" = Radar ON with EOS ON * Use to see if the target is Friendly / Foe and then switch OFF Radar Again using "I"

 

 

Thanks Kingsnake, very informative and well explained.

 

Question: Wouldn't the initial radar lock as in the first step you mentioned be sufficient to ID friend or foe or do you need to be closer within a certain range for that specific info to be indicated?

 

Question: I noticed the '77' was indicated on the HUD for missile choice while in EOS. Being a fully active radar missile which can be slaved to target by plane's radar or it's own internal radar [boresight launch], as per my earlier post it would seem the EOS can also slave the missile's internal radar guidence system, is this correct?

[fitness88]

It would be sufficient and actually you don't even need to lock it; just trying to show all kinds of differences and especially trying to show if you are trying to fly around without giving a RWR nails spike to the enemy, and you are in EOS, how to quickly identify Friend / Foe and then go silent again. It would just give a quick nails spike. I really prefer to fly when there is Red EWR setup which makes using the EOS capability a whole lot better.

* Be advised though, I'm terrible at air to air (still learning a lot myself)

 

 

This I need to test; I'm not really sure but I'll try it out and post back. I honestly wasn't paying too much attention to what missiles I had selected during the screenshots. I was more just showing Radar & EOS.

 

Edit: Yup.. the 77's own Radar is definitely turning on and guiding after launch (makes sense) and it totally gives away your shot. So I would say if you want to snipe with the EOS, use only IR missiles (27T, 27ET, & R73). :-)

 

I'm coming from 10 years flying Jane's F/A-18 and have to re-adjust to this sim...lot's of re-learning condsidering the missiles in FC3 are much harder to evade!

As for the 77 on the HUD, only the weapons that can be fired by the currently engaged tracking system [radar or EOS] will be displayed as you cycle through available weapons.

Thanks again for yours and everyone else's help...back to the drawing board:pilotfly:

[fitness88]

Something cool I just tried for fun... I shot an R73 using override and then targeted it w/ EOS and took it down with a R27ET. Using EOS is too much fun.

 

How are you targeting with the EOS since the bug in FC3 [MIG-29s] does not allow for proper movement of the laser tracker. Is it slaved to boresight?

 

Also I thought when I flew FC2, weapons couldn't be displayed at all on the HUD if the appropriate targeting system wasn't selected...but maybe I'm wrong on that, you tested the FC3 characteristics and found you could...interesting.

Edited January 13, 2013 by fitness88

[fitness88]

From Page 37-38 in the DCS FC3 Flight Manual EN.pdf

 

"When searching with IRST, target information is displayed in the HUD azimuth-elevation coordinates (as opposed to the azimuth-range coordinates when searching with radar). Azimuth is along horizontal, elevation angle along the vertical axes respectively."

 

Elevation seems to be locked (level on the bar in the HUD at 0 degrees) currently in 1.2.2.7570 but can detect up and down vertically to its gimbal limits is my guess (30/40 degrees from 0 each way; maybe a little more). Someone more knowledgeable can maybe answer the exacts. You just can't pan the sensor up / down in degrees from there right now. So I just manually pan it by moving the nose of the aircraft. It's not pretty but sometimes it works. A little broken but still usable. :-)

 

Note: I tried in FC2 and you can pan it more up than down. Duh @ myself; the nose of the aircraft is in the way looking down. Ha!

 

Azimuth (left & right) is working normally in 1.2.2.7570.

 

 

 

I just tested this out in FC2 and it works the same.

 

 

I'll suffer with the EOS until fixed and I'll do more practicing with what works:pilotfly:

Thanks again