New missile mod for FC 2.0

[SESova]

Hello everybody.

My friend Ragnarok has done some reasearch and crate the mod for FC 2.0 wich shud finaly move this simulation one step closer to the real life and make it as it shud be.

Mod solve the problem with science fiction AMRAM,but also fix some errors at russian missiles.A lots of expirinceed players tested this mod,and thay like it wery much.Now ,finaly,to make a kill or survive,hi skill is needed.It is very simple to use.Install it over mod man and that´s it.He can do the same with FC 3.0.

We want that more players test this mod,becouse we know there is still work to do,but simple,more opinions supported with facts is needed.

If this mod get support huge number of player,than we are also interested to start dedicated server with this mod installed and finaly move Lock On from dead point,but for that,we need help,we cant do everything alone.

Link for download is next: http://www.lockonfiles.com/index.php/files/file/2451-air-to-air-missiles-mod/

Waiting for opinions.

[Boberro]

Hello everybody.

My friend Ragnarok has done some reasearch and crate the mod for FC 2.0 wich shud finaly move this simulation one step closer to the real life and make it as it shud be.

Mod solve the problem with science fiction AMRAM,but also fix some errors at russian missiles.A lots of expirinceed players tested this mod,and thay like it wery much.Now ,finaly,to make a kill or survive,hi skill is needed.It is very simple to use.Install it over mod man and that´s it.He can do the same with FC 3.0.

We want that more players test this mod,becouse we know there is still work to do,but simple,more opinions supported with facts is needed.

If this mod get support huge number of player,than we are also interested to start dedicated server with this mod installed and finaly move Lock On from dead point,but for that,we need help,we cant do everything alone.

Link for download is next: http://www.lockonfiles.com/index.php/files/file/2451-air-to-air-missiles-mod/

Waiting for opinions.

 

What does experience player have to do with reality of real missiles? Many experienced pilots like what they believe to be real but it isn't.

 

This mod can be fun to play, can be nice and enjoyable. But don't tell me it is closer to reality.

 

Many people try to put Russian equipment higher than reality proved.

[GGTharos]

Cool, where's your supporting facts for AMRAAM being 'fiction' compared to other missiles in the game? We have official USN documents showing AMRAAM as a Mach 4+ missile and >35nm range from a 25000' 0.9M launch.

We also have range diagram for AIM-120A ... you can extrapolate AIM-120C with some success from that.

 

We also have very detailed R-27 characteristics as well, and some for R-77.

 

We want that more players test this mod,becouse we know there is still work to do,but simple,more opinions supported with facts is needed.

Edited February 9, 2013 by GGTharos

[SESova]

What does experience player have to do with reality of real missiles? Many experienced pilots like what they believe to be real but it isn't.

 

This mod can be fun to play, can be nice and enjoyable. But don't tell me it is closer to reality.

 

Many people try to put Russian equipment higher than reality proved.

 

OH,so proud american patroit! LOL.

Thats what bring us at blind streat.

 

Caracteristic and data of the missiles are taken from ED encyclopedia,so explane now to people from ED how did you find thair data incorrect.Datas are compared with data from the internet and in contacts with some real pilots.That is what we as civilians can do.

Basically,EED has done good job,but afther that add some extra range for AIM 120C that people like you can hit something with out having skills.

 

We are not thrying to proclaim glory of the russian weapons,we want to put the thing as thay are.

On the end,it is stupid to comment something with out testing it.

[Frostie]

The missiles already in FC2 are pretty realistic regarding ranges and speed for me, I don't see any reason why they would need tweaking or the AMRAAM being made any worse than what it is regarding speed.

 

The 51st don't participate in FC2 anymore so these judgements are based on how this would effect FC3 and are purely my own.

 

Mods like this are never a good idea, the values used are always going to be questioned and open for debate more so than on ED, so all this does is make two different versions of debate.

I've checked out your file so i'll start the ball rolling; R-27R outranging AIM-7, are you sure?

 

I'd also like to know how the ranges have been computed did you take random values of the internet or did you use a tool to compute fuel, weight, drag etc.?

 

As for the AMRAAM what have you done?

Made a TWS launched missile which the shooter drops lock very early, only activate the seeker at interception point? I don't think you've managed that and that it is probably the single most problem with what you are looking for, the ability for AMRAAMS to forget all the info it has been given and go crazy looking for anything at all angles.

Fixed the lack of INS? Probably not.

 

Thanks.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Frostie

[Teknetinium]

If FC3 shows to be unrealistic for for a big group of people this kind of mods will show up, at the moment I believe its to early for this kind of mods since we don't know where FC3 will land.

[GGTharos]

@Frostie

 

It's all based on pure fantasy. The truth is that getting accurate figures on these missiles is VERY hard. While we can get some pretty accurate stuff for older missiles (AIM-7F for example, which is similar to AIM-7M, and AIM-9L, which is similar to AIM-9M, and then R-27R/ER and R-73), it's very hard to get good sources for AIM-120 (we have 'some things' for A) and R-77 for example. Did you know that the 9L was capable of 5nm shots agaisnt a 5g target at 10000'? I didn't ... I do now, I have the WEZ diagrams ... but that was a bit of a shocker.

 

The question is, why would someone think that a new missile is somehow inferior to an old one?

 

Even in similar missiles (7F to 7M) the new one will perform better:

- The rocket is incrementally better, increasing speed and range a bit

- The electronics are ages and eons better, increasing overall Pk

 

Here's the shocker for the 7: The 7M features a completely new guidance section and seeker, together with AIM-120 data-link (yep! AIM-120 M-link!) which increases its range against targets because the 7F was SEEKER LIMITED to 20 nm against a 2sqm target! Even if the missile could fly further (aero range of some 50nm) it couldn't guide past 20, and I mean 20 at launch.

 

Missiles are quite complicated, Sova is wrong, and his mod is almost certainly wrong. No need to try it, unless it's because there's crying because AMRAAMs are 'too good'.

[SESova]

@Frostie

 

It's all based on pure fantasy. The truth is that getting accurate figures on these missiles is VERY hard. While we can get some pretty accurate stuff for older missiles (AIM-7F for example, which is similar to AIM-7M, and AIM-9L, which is similar to AIM-9M, and then R-27R/ER and R-73), it's very hard to get good sources for AIM-120 (we have 'some things' for A) and R-77 for example. Did you know that the 9L was capable of 5nm shots agaisnt a 5g target at 10000'? I didn't ... I do now, I have the WEZ diagrams ... but that was a bit of a shocker.

 

The question is, why would someone think that a new missile is somehow inferior to an old one?

 

Even in similar missiles (7F to 7M) the new one will perform better:

- The rocket is incrementally better, increasing speed and range a bit

- The electronics are ages and eons better, increasing overall Pk

 

Here's the shocker for the 7: The 7M features a completely new guidance section and seeker, together with AIM-120 data-link (yep! AIM-120 M-link!) which increases its range against targets because the 7F was SEEKER LIMITED to 20 nm against a 2sqm target! Even if the missile could fly further (aero range of some 50nm) it couldn't guide past 20, and I mean 20 at launch.

 

Missiles are quite complicated, Sova is wrong, and his mod is almost certainly wrong. No need to try it, unless it's because there's crying because AMRAAMs are 'too good'.

 

Not my mod,Ragnarok made it.

[GGTharos]

That's ok - do you understand what I posted?

[Exorcet]

Given the first post I'm weary of this mod. But I might try it just to see on my old computer. Maybe.

[cichlidfan]

I would like to see the documentation the mod is based on. :music_whistling:

[Ragnarok]

My english is not so good,so it is a problem for me to participate at broader discussion,but i will try. I know that mod is far from perfect. A lot of things are not modeled at all, but with my mod relations are better.

I was wondering, how it is possible that for the most missiles range is limited with effect up to 90 seconds? And more important, what value of the G force is true at the end of distance and what speed? We all know, the worst enemy of the AMRAAM are small controll surfaces wich not allow to him for making turn when lose energy in high altitude. In LO this is not modeled or respected.

Many factors was more to the game that no one ever asked.

If we think of these criteria, we can see that the AIM-7M missile better than R-27R, although there are apparently less range. After this mod energy of R-27r is is lower but lunch authorization on HUD is putted on prope .

[SESova]

I would like to see the documentation the mod is based on. :music_whistling:

 

ED encyclopedia and some information given by some real life pilots of Russia,Ukraina...For example,R 27 R we have information from real life serbian pilot.

[SESova]

@ Frostie

I noticed you've made the AMRAAM fly slower than the R-27, can I ask this is based on what?

 

Thanks.

 

That was not changed.Mod do not change the speed of the AMRAAM.

[cichlidfan]

ED encyclopedia and some information given by some real life pilots of Russia,Ukraina...For example,R 27 R we have information from real life serbian pilot.

 

Did the Serbian pilot design the missile or perhaps fire several hundred in documented test conditions?

[SESova]

Did the Serbian pilot design the missile or perhaps fire several hundred in documented test conditions?

Did ED team?

[GGTharos]

Did ED team?

 

The ED team has better data and material regarding these missiles than you ever will.

[cichlidfan]

Did ED team?

 

ED has their sources which they are not revealing however anecdotal evidence from a single pilot is not sufficient to prove ED incorrect.

[SESova]

The ED team has better data and material regarding these missiles than you ever will.

 

I belive that is true.Thay are in ED encyclopedia in Lock on,but you did not do missile flight models acording to this data,or to be precise, with patch 1.2.1 thats not respect.

[SESova]

ED has their sources which they are not revealing however anecdotal evidence from a single pilot is not sufficient to prove ED incorrect.

 

Pilot is just one of the sources.

[Eddie]

I belive that is true.Thay are in ED encyclopedia in Lock on,but you did not do missile flight models acording to this data,or to be precise, with patch 1.2.1 thats not respect.

 

The information in the DCS Encyclopedia is seriously out of date, many entries date back to lock on and have not been updated since before DCS Black Shark v1.0.

 

If your mod is in any way based on that information, then it is very wrong indeed.

 

The missile AFM introduced in DCS with the FC3 beta brings all missiles closer to their real life counterparts, although until an advanced guidance and control model is produced they are still not all that close.

[SEwhiteG]

I dont understand how is posible that in FC2 we have one value for missiles and on other side in FC3 different values. In both case you defend missiles as they are in the games (FC2;FC3) and at the same time, the values ​​for these same missiles are. drastically different.

For you values in both cases are ok and valid but your only concern is that ammram be better than the other missiles. I understand that very well cozz you geting money for that.

This mod is something between FC2 and FC3 wich are your products and they are drastically different.

I think that noone of you didnt even try to test this mod and you are talking here now this and that.

[GGTharos]

Listen, even the most realistic flight models are very difficult to make correct. FC2 did not have the most realistic missile flight model, and there is nothing you can do to fix this.

 

The Encyclopedia is just an encyclopedia. It means very little, it's like an internet source ... do NOT attempt to match in-game things to the encyclopedia.

 

I belive that is true.Thay are in ED encyclopedia in Lock on,but you did not do missile flight models acording to this data,or to be precise, with patch 1.2.1 thats not respect.

[GGTharos]

I dont understand how is posible that in FC2 we have one value for missiles and on other side in FC3 different values.

 

Completely different missile flight dynamics model. Does that explain why?

 

For you values in both cases are ok and valid but your only concern is that ammram be better than the other missiles.

 

No, your only concern is that AMRAAM is better than other missiles. The AMRAAM is and will be better than the other missiles modeled in this game.

 

I understand that very well cozz you geting money for that.

 

I'm not getting any money from anyone.

 

This mod is something between FC2 and FC3 wich are your products and they are drastically different.

I think that noone of you didnt even try to test this mod and you are taking here now this and that.

 

I don't need to test this mod to tell you it's fantasy. I just need to look at the values.

[SESova]

The information in the DCS Encyclopedia is seriously out of date, many entries date back to lock on and have not been updated since before DCS Black Shark v1.0.

 

If your mod is in any way based on that information, then it is very wrong indeed.

 

The missile AFM introduced in DCS with the FC3 beta brings all missiles closer to their real life counterparts, although until an advanced guidance and control model is produced they are still not all that close.

 

1. Encyclopedia is also just one of the sources.

For example in encyclopedia range of R 73 is 15 km.In Lock on also.But in real life,that is not true.Mod fix that.

2. Have you thry to hit the target with >100 km with AMRAM with this mod?

You have put HUGE energy for AMRAM in FC 2.0,but limited its range by 90 seconds delay self destruction.By that you are trying to hide AMRAAM real range in Lock on.