Rusky radar question

[GGTharos]

I think Team BSR is moving providers, so, not off-hand, but you may want to try Lockonskins or Thomas' websites, see if they have it. :)

[Yellonet]

Real, on line players do not fly the same as AI’s. I can easily defeat AI F-15. However, when playing on line, there are multiple number of airplanes, heavy electronic countermeasures complicated by the fact that friendly ECM’s are clogging the HUD!

 

So the fight is reduced to the ranges at which the radar’s burn through the ECM. Well Sukhoi can’t do anything there! F-15 launches AMRAAM and turn his back, run and that’s it! That is the whole game! It is not fun any more!

There's no need to go in at burnthrough range (which apparently is very overmodeled).

[GGTharos]

In fact, there a bug with the flankers which allows BT at twice its normal range right now ;) Either way, you can launch the missile HOJ just outside of BT range, and F-Pole when you get BT ... easy way to beat the amraam at low altitudes. Just get a vis, launch on VIS, Pole, you're golden.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Or you can learn to dodge AIM-120's like a lot of flanker pilots do online right now, and make sure you use your weapons in effective ways.

It is easy to dodge one AMRAAM and stay offensive. You loose a lot of energy. The second one will most likely hit you. If by luck you dodge the second one, the third one will hit you 100%!

You can not use the range advantage of Alamo missiles in heavy ECM environment. That is exactly why EWR or AWACS is needed in on-line maps. While the argument that Su/27S can not carry ARH is a valid argument, the fact is that the Su-27S has a data-link and EWR and AWACS is modeled in game and it is perfectly “realistic”!

The Su-27's missiles easily outrange the AMRAAM (which is easily outranged by the AIM-7) ... so what's the problem?

I will rapeat, one more time, that range advatage of Alamo missiles can not be used in heavy ECM environment.

Don't know how to take advantage of the 120's short legs?

No comments.

 

Has Locsta's awesome work on the F-Pole video been in vain?

Can you provide a link to that video please? Thanks.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

There's no need to go in at burnthrough range (which apparently is very overmodeled).

One on one is not the problem. Su-27 beats F-15, again one on one, no problem what so ever. And yes, you do not have to wait for a burn through!

 

However, on line games are almost never one on one engagements!

[GGTharos]

It is easy to dodge one AMRAAM and stay offensive. You loose a lot of energy. The second one will most likely hit you. If by luck you dodge the second one, the third one will hit you 100%!

You can not use the range advantage of Alamo missiles in heavy ECM environment. That is exactly why EWR or AWACS is needed in on-line maps. While the argument that Su/27S can not carry ARH is a valid argument, the fact is that the Su-27S has a data-link and EWR and AWACS is modeled in game and it is perfectly “realistic”!

 

Yes, but it's only half-realistic, because the other side can't even get a proper picture. Maybe that's not easy to understand, but there are significant deficiencies in AWACS reporting right now, to which a datalink gives a very significant advantage which is NOT realistic.

 

I will rapeat, one more time, that range advatage of Alamo missiles can not be used in heavy ECM environment.

 

Untrue. There are simple methods to do this with. Now, if you fly yourself into a swarm of F-15Cs, that's a problem.

 

Can you provide a link to that video please? Thanks.

 

I wanted to but I can't find it. Like I said though, you might find it on lockonskins or on THomas' site. Barring that, wait for ruggbutt or Loc to chime in with the new location (they are changing ISPs) :)

[Yellonet]

*removed*

[GGTharos]

One on one is not the problem. Su-27 beats F-15, again one on one, no problem what so ever. And yes, you do not have to wait for a burn through!

 

However, on line games are almost never one on one engagements!

 

Then make sure you have a good wingman.

 

It is possible to at least end up with 'no kills' for both sides if you do it right. I don't like engaging more than one enemy aircraft when I don't have a wingman. I can tolerate engaging a pair of flankers, but if they work together even just a little, I end up in trouble - I have to turn and run, and most often my missiles won't hit in that case (except when the opposition decides to NOT DODGE them).

 

As the battle gets closer, things get harder for the flankers, but if you play your cards right, you can keep the 15's defensive enough to get you into ET seeker range, and USUALLY that's bye-bye F-15. You have to meet a pretty good pilot to see him dodge your heaters under pressure.

 

In addition there are many things you can do, like tactical use of your jammer to make your friends, and try to overwhelm the enemy fighters with surprise.

 

I'm not saying the 27 isn't disadvantaged - it is, and it's supposed to be, but it isn't impossible to play. I does take more work for sure, but again, not impossible.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

In fact, there a bug with the flankers which allows BT at twice its normal range right now ;)

There is bugs on both sides. F-15 can see the range in HOJ, right? However, we are not talking about bugs here.

Either way, you can launch the missile HOJ just outside of BT range, and F-Pole when you get BT ... easy way to beat the amraam at low altitudes. Just get a vis, launch on VIS, Pole, you're golden.

What is the BT range? You can IFF the target in HOJ!

 

On on one engagemnet is not the problem! You can easily use the tactic you are describing! However, on line games are almost never one on one engagemts.

 

BTW what is VIS?

[GGTharos]

There is bugs on both sides. F-15 can see the range in HOJ, right? However, we are not talking about bugs here.

What is the BT range? You can IFF the target in HOJ!

 

The F-15 can no longer IFF the target in HoJ (as of 1.11), AND it can only see range if an empty pylon is selected, which is fixed in 1.12.

The BT range is around 25KM. Flankers can get more BT range when using the HI PRF setting (high or med, which one I forget). This will also be fixed.

 

On on one engagemnet is not the problem! You can easily use the tactic you are describing! However, on line games are almost never one on one engagemts.

You NEED a good wingman. Or a few. I -cannot- stress this enough!

 

BTW what is VIS?

Visual. You get visual at around 30km. So you can watch for the dot to appear in your target designator, and once you see this you know his range and you may immidiately launch your missile HoJ.

[Yellonet]

*removed* Damn you're fast.

[GGTharos]

Hehe :)

 

BTW, Thomas' website: http://www.lockonfiles.com/

[Yellonet]

The BT range is around 25KM. Flankers can get more BT range when using the HI PRF setting (high or med, which one I forget). This will also be fixed.

About that... wasn't it SK that were saying that BT should only be a few hundred meters?

[GGTharos]

Yes, and he's probably right ... in the absense of any sort of ECCM.

 

Longer answer: We don't really know - there are ways to deal with ECM, that much I know from reading about the NIKE Hercules, which has been declassified - although the ECCM methods are still classified.

 

I imagine a fighter radar can do a few things to get 'burn through' earlier, such as frequency hopping, pulse coding, and so on and so forth. All of this is specilation on my part though and should not be taken to mean that any of this actually happens.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Yes, but it's only half-realistic, because the other side can't even get a proper picture. Maybe that's not easy to understand, but there are significant deficiencies in AWACS reporting right now, to which a datalink gives a very significant advantage which is NOT realistic.

I don't know if the current modeling of AWACS and EWR is realistic or not! I don't know if AMRAAM is realisticly modeled or not. I do know this is how the game works right now and that is how I want to play it. The online maps are favoring F-15's and less and less people are flying Su-27!

Untrue. There are simple methods to do this with. Now, if you fly yourself into a swarm of F-15Cs, that's a problem.

no comments.

[GGTharos]

I haven't seen a map yet that favors the F-15 over the flanker. I watched as 3 flankers laid the smack down on 3 F-15's just last night over Kerch - open terrain.

 

A number of missiles are, or seem to be, undermodelled -in some respects-, including the AMRAAM and R77.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Then make sure you have a good wingman.

Two Su-27's do not stand a chance against two F-15's. That is 16 ARH against NONE ARH!

 

It is possible to at least end up with 'no kills' for both sides if you do it right. I don't like engaging more than one enemy aircraft when I don't have a wingman. I can tolerate engaging a pair of flankers, but if they work together even just a little, I end up in trouble - I have to turn and run, and most often my missiles won't hit in that case (except when the opposition decides to NOT DODGE them).

In the first part of this paragraph, you are saying that SARH can succesfully compete with ARH! So why did USA and Russians ever come up with ARH?

Next, you state that you "tolerate" engaging TWO flankers! Well, of course you do, becuae you have eight ARH and they have NONE.

 

As the battle gets closer, things get harder for the flankers, but if you play your cards right, you can keep the 15's defensive enough to get you into ET seeker range, and USUALLY that's bye-bye F-15. You have to meet a pretty good pilot to see him dodge your heaters under pressure.

That is not what is happening on line! On line games, F-15 pilots shoot their AMRAAM missiles and run back home to reload!

 

I'm not saying the 27 isn't disadvantaged - it is, and it's supposed to be, but it isn't impossible to play. I does take more work for sure, but again, not impossible.

I understand that F-15 is far superrior then Su-27 as modeled in this game! That is why we need EWR and AWACS to level the playing field. EWR and/or AWACS are technologies that existed when Su-27S (as modeled in this game) was introduced in service! So it is perfectly all right to include them in on line maps!

[GGTharos]

Two Su-27's do not stand a chance against two F-15's. That is 16 ARH against NONE ARH!

 

And? ARH isn't magical, it can be defeated, and the AMRAAMs short legs will cause trouble for the 15's in particular.

 

In the first part of this paragraph, you are saying that SARH can succesfully compete with ARH! So why did USA and Russians ever come up with ARH?

 

Because it's better. Unfortunately, that's not really the case with LOMAC's ARHs. They're undermodelled in a number of ways, JUST based on the seeker. ;)

 

Next, you state that you "tolerate" engaging TWO flankers! Well, of course you do, becuae you have eight ARH and they have NONE.

 

I also 'tolerate' engaging 2xF-15Cs in a flanker, online. I fly all the planes, I just have to stick witht he 15 as my main ride ;)

 

That is not what is happening on line! On line games, F-15 pilots shoot their AMRAAM missiles and run back home to reload!

 

Well, if I shot all my missiles off in a flanker, I'd run home too. Usually I need to cover my wingman or an A-10 so I don't get to turn and run, unless I'm useless in the fight.

Maybe you need to visit the 504 server ;)

 

I understand that F-15 is far superrior then Su-27 as modeled in this game! That is why we need EWR and AWACS to level the playing field. EWR and/or AWACS are technologies that existed when Su-27S (as modeled in this game) was introduced in service! So it is perfectly all right to include them in on line maps!

 

Yes, and they existed for the F_15 as well. Why doesn't it have them? So, no, the F-15 is not far superior as modelled in this game. Far from it. It has some advantages, but there's a HUGE load of stuff missing.

[Gazehound]

Two Su-27's do not stand a chance against two F-15's. That is 16 ARH against NONE ARH!

Bull, 2 flankers can beat any 2 combo in the game. Not when flown by AI at this time, but when humans are flying them then its as easy as reversing the roles.

 

That is not what is happening on line! On line games, F-15 pilots shoot their AMRAAM missiles and run back home to reload!

Some do, some are notorious for firing all their missiles at max range and running back home. I could name names but whats the point, they are a minor annoyance. Especially if they kill you and the are on your team.

Also, what does any pilotdo when they arrive in winchester? Some may stay about to jam but most will head for the hills.

 

I understand that F-15 is far superrior then Su-27 as modeled in this game! That is why we need EWR and AWACS to level the playing field. EWR and/or AWACS are technologies that existed when Su-27S (as modeled in this game) was introduced in service! So it is perfectly all right to include them in on line maps!

It is perfectly ok yes, but the f15 is not far superior, its a bit superior to both flankers and migs in most situations. Like I noted above (or maybe a similar thread) our server maps are only incorporating ewr when there are russian planes/f15s on both sides. Otherwise it is FAR too easy on the russian planes - we tried it. It stank.

 

Also I think your idea about having low use for alamo range in ECM environment is wrong - Alamo HOJ is deadly and obviously has higher pk than AIM-120 from a given range.

[Kula66]

That is not what is happening on line! On line games, F-15 pilots shoot their AMRAAM missiles and run back home to reload!

 

Not true ... I've often had 4 kills in single flight ... thats with 8 AMRAAMs ... but your right, then I do have to run home to reload!

 

And you say the 15 is modelled better ... poor Nav, shorter range missiles, no EOS, poorer at low speed, fewer weapons, colour displays, missing radar modes ... and some of its biggest advantages are missing! JTIDS ... While some of the 27s disadvantages are missing ... poor switchology, long lockup times ...

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I haven't seen a map yet that favors the F-15 over the flanker. I watched as 3 flankers laid the smack down on 3 F-15's just last night over Kerch - open terrain.

Every "map" favors F-15. When I say “map” I am not taking about the terrain!

 

A number of missiles are, or seem to be, undermodelled -in some respects-, including the AMRAAM and R77.

What do you mean by that?

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

And? ARH isn't magical, it can be defeated, and the AMRAAMs short legs will cause trouble for the 15's in particular.

I never said ARH is magical! I never said it can not be defeated.

Because it's better. Unfortunately, that's not really the case with LOMAC's ARHs. They're undermodelled in a number of ways, JUST based on the seeker. ;)

So, the way the LOMAC is modeled, the F-15 uses BETTER missiles, and Su-27S should have GCI or AWACS support, as tehy did in real life when Su-27 was introduced in service! It makes perfect sense! Therefore, on line maps should definately include AWACS/EWR for fair play!

I also 'tolerate' engaging 2xF-15Cs in a flanker, online. I fly all the planes, I just have to stick witht he 15 as my main ride ;)

I salute you for being a good pilot having skills to engage two F-15's! In real life, you would loose 100% of time engaging two platforms of the same capabilities!

 

Well, if I shot all my missiles off in a flanker, I'd run home too.

So what is your point? My point was that after launching every missile, F-15 pilots fly back home, reload and then do the same! So the entire playing is about launch and hope it will hit! Now, that is maybe how it is in real life too! However, in real life, when Su-27S was introduced, it did have a data-link and possible AWACS data-link. So it is perfectly all right to include EWR/AWACS in on line maps.

Usually I need to cover my wingman or an A-10 so I don't get to turn and run, unless I'm useless in the fight.

Maybe you need to visit the 504 server ;)

I do visit 504 server and i salute and thank tham for a good map and server they provide for all of us to enjoy!

 

Yes, and they existed for the F_15 as well. Why doesn't it have them?

That is the question you need to as ED.

 

So, no, the F-15 is not far superior as modelled in this game. Far from it. It has some advantages, but there's a HUGE load of stuff missing.

Well, F-15 is faster, can carry ARH missiles and can engage multiple targets simultaneously. Isn’t that a definition of “far superior”? I do believe that was the actual situation when Su-27S was introduced. However, Russian strategists and generals also knew that! That is why EWR/AWACS are so essential for successful employment of Su-27S. And that’s why we do have EWR/AWACS in Lock On!

[Force_Feedback]

Concerning the datalink mode: Here's how it should look like

 

 

 

[GGTharos]

Is that from the Su-27SK?

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Bull, 2 flankers can beat any 2 combo in the game. Not when flown by AI at this time, but when humans are flying them then its as easy as reversing the roles.

Your statement might be right! However, most of the time I play on line, the first palce is either F-15 or MiG-29. Very seldom Su-27.

It is perfectly ok yes, but the f15 is not far superior, its a bit superior to both flankers and migs in most situations.

All right! let us just say F-15 is superior in lock On! And I do believe that is how it was in real life at the time Su-27S was introduced to service. My point is that Russians knew that the Su-27 on board sensors (radar in particular) are inferior to F-15. They also knew Su-27S can not carry ARH missiles. So that is where GCI (EWR) and AWACS get into a picture.

 

Like I noted above (or maybe a similar thread) our server maps are only incorporating ewr when there are russian planes/f15s on both sides.

That is very good! I appreciate that!

Otherwise it is FAR too easy on the russian planes - we tried it. It stank.

Su-27S was designed to use GCI(EWR) and or AWACS. So what if it is easy to shoot F-15 with the help of EWR/AWACS? F-15 pilots have supperior on board radar and ARH! Let them find use of it!

 

Also I think your idea about having low use for alamo range in ECM environment is wrong - Alamo HOJ is deadly and obviously has higher pk than AIM-120 from a given range.

If this statement is correct, no F-15 would ever carry AMRAAM!