This Spin feature doesn't seem right

[Der_Fred]

Here's a quick demonstration track. On first spin attempt.. I pull hard on the stick (100%) and kick right rudder (100%) and hold it there. The plane refuses to spin. Where as kicking left rudder it reluctantly goes into a spin ??

 

AFAIK.. aircraft like these should eagerly go into a spin with such control input?

 

Any comments on this.

NoStalling.trk

[msalama]

I succeeded in getting the plane to spin both left and right, but it recovered automatically when I released the controls. Is this correct?

[IonicRipper]

I don't have DCS Mustang but i've played a LOT of WWII sims and you are right. Full back stick and full left or right rudder should cause a spin.

Edited March 7, 2013 by IonicRipper

[Der_Fred]

I succeeded in getting the plane to spin both left and right, but it recovered automatically when I released the controls. Is this correct?

 

Depends how far the spin has developed, there is a point, beyond which, where you have to execute recovery procedure to get it out of the spin.

When I was training (in the dark ages :) ) we'd do forced spins, and it didn't take much to push a docile plane into a spin, and this plane could recover from a spin without any input.

 

So Ja... this part and the accelerated stalls should be seen to. :)

Edited March 7, 2013 by Der_Fred

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I will certainly give your track a try tonight, but, are you sure you're on SIM mode?

 

I can spin the p51d in DCS very easily, and even flat-spin it (which is har to recover from and certainly not possible simply by releasing the controls....)

[Foul Ole Ron]

this part and the accelerated stalls should be seen to. :)

 

The accelerated stalls are fine and don't need to be seen to. Probably what you're experiencing is the low amount of travel on your stick that's needed to go from ok flight to an accelerated stall. A real P51 stick would have more travel and wouldn't feel quite as quick to get into one. It might be a good idea to flatten our your X and Y stick curves a bit so that you have some more leeway during the initial stages of pulling on the stick. It still should happen fairly easily though as that's just how the P51 was due to it's wing design.

 

Have a read over this link:

 

http://www.warbirddepot.com/fighter_formation/documents/FFQP_Turn_Performance.pdf

 

The accelerated stall envelope for a 8,000lb gross weight P51D is given in a V-G diagram at the bottom.

[Yo-Yo]

Here's a quick demonstration track. On first spin attempt.. I pull hard on the stick (100%) and kick right rudder (100%) and hold it there. The plane refuses to spin. Where as kicking left rudder it reluctantly goes into a spin ??

 

AFAIK.. aircraft like these should eagerly go into a spin with such control input?

 

Any comments on this.

 

I can not play the track now, but it seems to be power-on effect acting counter your right rudder input. High AoA + power-on = massive p-factor and propwash yawing left.

 

power-off stalls and spins go as they must.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Yo-Yo

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Indeed, Foul's remarks regarding joystick travel are probably on spot!

 

Presently I use full 100% course + Linear in all axis! I have learned to fly the p51d, and once you get your hands on it, and start mastering the use of the controls, this is probably the most realistic setting, provided you have a good controller. Mine is a X52 Pro.

 

Ah! And Yo-Yo might be offering an alternative explanation too.

 

Indeed propwash / slipstream effects are so "perfect" in this sim that you really have to get accustomed to it :-)

Edited March 7, 2013 by jcomm

[msalama]

Thank you gents, most illuminating :) Yah, I probably should set up my controllers without any curves whatsoever and try again, but how the hell do I control the beast then??? The bugger's almost too sensitive as it is with approx. 30% curvature on all axes...

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Mine (X52 Pro + Saitek Rudder) are all at 100% course and linear.

[Kwiatek]

Some time ago i tried spins characteristic of DCS-P51.

 

Accelerated stall and spin to the left seemed ok - plane easly enter into left spin when pull back stick and left rudder --- these is logical casue P-51 prop rotate to the right - so all prop moments ( propwash, torque and p-factor casue plane yaw/rotate to the left)

 

Accelerated spin to the right are rather impossible in DCS P-51 casue all of above effects in game are so strong that blocked right rudder input and not allowed plane to right rotating. If it is realistic? I dont know. Surly P-51 had very strong prop moments ( noticable during take offs) but i wonder if these effects were such strong to prevent accelerated spins to the right? Hard to say casue i haven't flown real P-51 yet. My experience is only with rather light low power aerobatic plane ( Zlin 526 180 HP) which have no problem to power on spin in any direction.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Kwiatek

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Some time ago i tried spins characteristic of DCS-P51.

 

Accelerated stall and spin to the left seemed ok - plane easly enter into right spin when pull back stick and left rudder --- these is logical casue P-51 prop rotate to the right - so all prop moments ( propwash, torque and p-factor casue plane yaw/rotate to the left)

 

Accelerated spin to the left are rather impossible in DCS P-51 casue all of above effects in game are so strong that blocked right rudder input and not allowed plane to right rotating. If it is realistic? I dont know. Surly P-51 had very strong prop moments ( noticable during take offs) but i wonder if these effects were such strong to prevent accelerated spins to the right? Hard to say casue i haven't flown real P-51 yet. My experience is only with rather light low power aerobatic plane ( Zlin 526 180 HP) which have no problem to power on spin in any direction.

 

Kwiatek,

 

just out of curiosity, how does the Zlin behave in terms of roll due to torque? For instance when at high power climbs / or even level flight, is there a noticeable roll moment when you increase / decrease power, or is it much more a yaw moment (due to asymmetric slipstream, p-factor, etc...)?

[Der_Fred]

I understand the Torque, Yaw and Prop-wash effects, but these, I think, should not be that significant at around 250 mph/knots on a right spin. It just seems sooo slow even on the left spin.

There were WW2 vets talking about a snap roll (opposite rudder to the turn)... It's difficult to perform this at the moment.

 

Kwiatek . .I think you might want to re-read what you've written, I think you've mixed up your direction of spin.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Der_Fred

[Kwiatek]

Kwiatek,

 

just out of curiosity, how does the Zlin behave in terms of roll due to torque? For instance when at high power climbs / or even level flight, is there a noticeable roll moment when you increase / decrease power, or is it much more a yaw moment (due to asymmetric slipstream, p-factor, etc...)?

 

Well there are some moments which you need counter little opposite rudder - in ZLin 526 is is noticable during high power dives ( need little right rudder), power on zooms or slow speed high power climbs ( need little left rudder) but really it is not such strong effect, adding power from idle to full is marginally noticable - i used it for example during vertical dives (incresing speed) after some figures ( stall turn ) or Cuban Eight and then really dont feel too much prop effects. Rolls for any side are qiute easy not feel too much problem with left rolls, no problems with left flick rolls at all - truly speaking i made usually left flick rolls and half flick left roll ( Split S manouver). ZLin 526 has left rotating prop.

[Der_Fred]

Ah.. OK, sorry I thought you were talking wrt the P51 - My bad!

[msalama]

It's difficult to perform this at the moment.

 

Did you set your controllers to zero curvature when testing, BTW?

[Echo38]

Doesn't the real-life P-51 training film mention that accelerated stalls will generally drop the same wing? It's been a long time since I've seen it, but I know the airplane has--at the very least--a strong tendency to drop one of the wings and not the other in stalls.

[msalama]

Hmmm... there's a CAA Airworthiness Approval Note for a P-51D registered as G-SIRR in the UK - not sure if it sheds any light on this really, but FWIW they're still talking about "accelerated stalls producing rapid roll to the right":

 

http://www.caa.co.uk/AANDocs/25986/25986000000.pdf

 

But then G-SIRR seems to be a civvie 2-seater, so :dunno: