Some observations and some suggestions

[Spudman]

So after messing around with CA for a while, I've noticed some things that can be improved; first off are the ATGMs. I can't speak for the Russian built AT missiles but I do know the TOW to be a very accurate missile. In the sim. when the TOW is fired it jumps all over the place all the way to the target, and it jumps enough that I can only hit a target 50 to 75% of the time. Either it hits the ground (which I compensate by aiming high for the first few seconds), or it gets right up to the target and will jump in any given direction and will go around the target, or hit the ground just ahead of the target, very frustrating. All the footage that I've seen of TOWs being fired, they're wild at first until they find their flight path, then they settle down right in the center of the cross-hairs and their movements after that are very smooth, not jerky and they hit their intended targets with a great deal of accuracy. Some versions of the TOW don't even contact their targets, they explode over the top and send their shaped charge downward.

 

Second; this is an area that I have first hand knowledge of, I was a 19K (M1A1 Abrams Crew Member) for a few years. That being said, a good gunner can hit his intended target every time. In CA I place targets at ranges from 1 up to 2.5 miles and I'm lucky if I hit the target 50% of the time. Operator error you say? No, I placed 8 tanks on a hill side so that I could get a real good idea of where my rounds where impacting, I got the gun dialed in so that I knew I was on target and never moved the gun after that, The rounds hit all over the place. Looking though the sight, the rounds would leave the barrel to the right, or the left. Very few flew straight down the center line and of the ones that did, more than half where either long, or short. The ammunition and barrels on the Abrams are manufactured to exacting specifications. Are there errors during manufacturing? Yes, of course there are, but not to this degree of error. I never saw an Abrams main gun that inaccurate during my time in the Army. As far as the ammo goes, if we even saw a small chip, or gouge to the outside of the round, it was returned. The silver part that looks like the shell, isn't the shell. There is no shell, the sliver part is the propellent and it's very accurate ammunition. If you have your gun dialed in on the real thing, you are going to hit your target.

 

Third; why not incorporate the HEAT round and, or the MPAT round, or a variation there of for the M1 Abrams into the sim.? We have a HE round, but that's not the same as HEAT. The M830A1 MPAT round(is going to be replaced by the Advanced Multi-Purpose (AMP)) is a HEAT round that can used to shoot down helicopters, via a simple twist of the fuse on the nose of the round. Twisting the fuse makes it into a close proximity airburst round. There are sensors in the round that can detect a helicopter as the round passes it and triggers is to explode in close proximity, very similar to a SAM and very effective. After all the 9M119 Svir and Refleks were written into the sim. Why not give the Abrams and other NATO tanks a bit more versatility?

 

I believe that these improvements would do CA justice and make for a better experience overall. Anyway gentlemen that's my two cents.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Spudman

[Madone]

Really interesting reading Spudman! That's more than "2 cents" to me and it's totally right.

Though I don't really understand the "TOW jump", as it's guided so normally the missile would land where the crosshair is aimed at. What was the range?

 

I feel like the dev teams are sometimes really wrong about the accuracy of the weapons. Maybe to make the game harder, I don't know, but that's ridiculous, same problem with rifles recoil in Arma 3 for example. I've a friend that was a Leclerc gunner, in training he was able to hit 7 targets on 8. So yeah, 50% to 75% in game is not good at all...

[Dusty Rhodes]

I was a TOW Gunner and Squad Leader in a former life. 75% with the TOW is about accurate and that is for a good steady gunner.

[Spudman]

I was a TOW Gunner and Squad Leader in a former life. 75% with the TOW is about accurate and that is for a good steady gunner.

 

Interesting; I guess the powers to be show us what they want us to see.

[Spudman]

Really interesting reading Spudman! That's more than "2 cents" to me and it's totally right.

Though I don't really understand the "TOW jump", as it's guided so normally the missile would land where the crosshair is aimed at. What was the range?

 

I feel like the dev teams are sometimes really wrong about the accuracy of the weapons. Maybe to make the game harder, I don't know, but that's ridiculous, same problem with rifles recoil in Arma 3 for example. I've a friend that was a Leclerc gunner, in training he was able to hit 7 targets on 8. So yeah, 50% to 75% in game is not good at all...

 

I've fired at targets from about .7 miles out to the TOWs max range of about 2.5 miles.

[Spudman]

I was a TOW Gunner and Squad Leader in a former life. 75% with the TOW is about accurate and that is for a good steady gunner.

 

Okay, so in your experience is it the missile, or the gunner in the real world that resulted in a miss. I also know from experience that the Army allows some real tards to operate equipment that they shouldn't be operating. Some people can't get it right even if you do it for them.

[Dusty Rhodes]

The miss could be the wire breaking or Human error. If you make abrupt targeting changes could cause the wire break. Gunner training is pretty intense. You must be the smarter of the Infantry to be a TOW gunner.

[Mojeaux]

you might also note that in DCS...firing the TOW while moving will not break the wire! Is that true in the real world?

 

Firing the MBT's gun while moving moves the smoke as it should and you can see the round impact on or near the target.

[Dusty Rhodes]

I believe in combat situations it was recommended less than 5 MPH to fire a TOW with optimal being standing still.

[Spudman]

I believe in combat situations it was recommended less than 5 MPH to fire a TOW with optimal being standing still.

 

As far as the misses go, I've always been stationary when firing any ATGM.

[maturin]

I believe they claim 0.9 for the TOW's hit rate, and anything lower than that is operator error or bad firing conditions (foliage, fog and water).

[sgtmike74]

I've seen TOWs fail in training but they were the inerts that have been stored for a very long time in some bunker. All of the TOWs above the TOW basic should have a range of 3750km. Their flight motors don't burn for the entire flight either.

Edited May 6, 2013 by sgtmike74
Correction

[tads]

I agree with Spudman,TOW missiles do jump around a little,although i can attain about 95%hit

ratio.I think the missile flight could be tightened up a little.

 

The way the missile flight is now reminds me of some of the ATGm's used in Syria,the first is not a TOW,but the second video is.

 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=83f_1365882440

 

 

 

 

I tried to pick the best videos to depict missile flight and motor burn so its easy to track.

Enjoy

[sgtmike74]

I agree with Spudman,TOW missiles do jump around a little,although i can attain about 95%hit

ratio.I think the missile flight could be tightened up a little.

 

The way the missile flight is now reminds me of some of the ATGm's used in Syria,the first is not a TOW,but the second video is.

 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=83f_1365882440

 

 

 

 

I tried to pick the best videos to depict missile flight and motor burn so its easy to track.

Enjoy

 

Nice video, you can see the flight motor doesn't last very long and it's the kinectic energy that carries it the rest of the way. That glow you see on the tail end is a beacon that burns, which is picked up by the tracker unit.

[tads]

I agree sgtmike,the motor only burns for a short time,I had a feeling that the latter glow was for tracking and a visual cue for the operator,but could not be sure,thanks for the additional info.

 

A little more stabilization would be welcome and maybe cut down on the smoke left by the initial burn?.

[Wrecking Crew]

I also know from experience that the Army allows some real tards to operate equipment that they shouldn't be operating.

 

^^^ ROTC candidates :music_whistling:

[sgtmike74]

I agree sgtmike,the motor only burns for a short time,I had a feeling that the latter glow was for tracking and a visual cue for the operator,but could not be sure,thanks for the additional info.

 

A little more stabilization would be welcome and maybe cut down on the smoke left by the initial burn?.

 

The missile will look erratic at first (you're looking through a magnified view) but they will settle down and hit their targets. We always told our gunners NOT to try to "fly" the missile, but to only place the cross hairs on the target.

 

Here is a pretty good video showing what it looks like through optics, both from a cobra and a ground vehicle.

 

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=related&v=t-akbhcsjmg

 

But yes there is way too much smoke in the sim. But it's a small annoyance for such a great overall product.

[CaptHawk]

On a side note, I had a rather interesting experience last night with the TOWS...I call it Multiple Tow Launcher Syndrome:D Not sure what triggered this but suddenly my bradley Started firing multiple TOWS, literally 100's and would not stop. Needless to say the enemy was overwelmed:D

http://forums.eagle.ru/

[Spudman]

 

Go to 2:20

 

 

 

 

Go to 3:47

[cacti4-6]

Always nice to see some US vets and active duty bubbas in the community. Good pickups on the tow innacuracy. I dont have CA *YET* but I am looking forward to getting it very soon.

 

Cheers!

 

Cacti4-6

Militarygamers.com Senior Staff.

 

PS:

 

I am always looking for a good wingman in my A-10, or a copilot/door gunner in my shiney new Huey!