Question about 400 to 450 turn rate in defense and attack.

[Dudester22]

I am playing FC3, but I thought I would put this out here since it is suppose to apply to many different types of fighter aircraft. I have read many times now that the best chance of reaching a targets 6 o clock, is to get into a good turn rate. I have read you are suppose to maintain a speed of between 400 to 450 knots to maintain a good turn rate. The problem I have with all this is it just seems impossible for me to do. When I spot an aircraft and try to get into a position to do this, I have so many problems trying to control my speed. I can pull back on the stick, but I can immediately drop to 300 knots in an instant. Can someone tell me what I am doing wrong? Am I suppose to just life my wing to 90 degrees and just alter the throttle without pulling back on the stick or what?

 

The other thing I heard is you are also suppose to also maintain 400 to 450 if an target is at your 6 o clock in-order to out turn him. Can someone tell me if this is correct because I am also having problems maintaining my speed when this happens.

[IASGATG]

Roll about 90, pull the stick until you start to decelerate, hold at 450kts, keep AB on max, try not to fall asleep at 7g's.

[Yellonet]

I am playing FC3, but I thought I would put this out here since it is suppose to apply to many different types of fighter aircraft. I have read many times now that the best chance of reaching a targets 6 o clock, is to get into a good turn rate. I have read you are suppose to maintain a speed of between 400 to 450 knots to maintain a good turn rate. The problem I have with all this is it just seems impossible for me to do. When I spot an aircraft and try to get into a position to do this, I have so many problems trying to control my speed. I can pull back on the stick, but I can immediately drop to 300 knots in an instant. Can someone tell me what I am doing wrong? Am I suppose to just life my wing to 90 degrees and just alter the throttle without pulling back on the stick or what?

 

The other thing I heard is you are also suppose to also maintain 400 to 450 if an target is at your 6 o clock in-order to out turn him. Can someone tell me if this is correct because I am also having problems maintaining my speed when this happens.

Well, if the aircraft in question has it's best turn rate at somewhere between 400 and 450, the of course you should try to turn at that speed whenever you need to turn as fast as possible.

If you immediately drop to 300 you're pulling too hard on the stick.

While that may give you a very fast instantaneous turn rate, it's going to get worse fast. Instead, pull on the stick until the speed is between 400 and 450, then don't pull further, I assume that you also need to go to full throttle to maintain a good high G turn at 400-450.

[Yellonet]

Roll about 90, pull the stick until you start to decelerate, hold at 450kts, keep AB on max, try not to fall asleep at 7g's.

A bit more clear than my try at explaining :thumbup:

[Dudester22]

Got ya!! So I am pulling to hard on the stick. I was also attempting to do this without using my After Burners. So after Burners on, yes? Also, are you suppose to do this 400 - 450 turn, if say a surface to air missile is on it's way to you? Or are you just suppose to chaff, flare, and turn as hard you can at any speed?

[Yellonet]

Got ya!! So I am pulling to hard on the stick. I was also attempting to do this without using my After Burners. So after Burners on, yes? Also, are you suppose to do this 400 - 450 turn, if say a surface to air missile is on it's way to you? Or are you just suppose to chaff, flare, and turn as hard you can at any speed?

Missile evasion is a whole other topic, but if you get a missile locked on and fired at you, the first thing you need to know where it's coming from, the RWR should help you there. If you are so close that you just cannot outrun the missile you should beam it, i.e. put it on your 3 or 9 o clock, that way the missile has to lead the most, and it might even lose its lock on you.

Look for the smoke trail and maybe you can see the missile coming at you, when it's close you can try to turn into it.

 

I was going to make a drawing but found this: look at 6:00.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dajjO8RELMs

[Pyroflash]

400-450 is what is called a corner speed range.

 

What a corner speed is, is the best combination of turn rate and turn radius.

 

Maintaining a good corner speed takes practice, especially if you don't intend to stare at your HUD all day, which will get you killed. It is also important to maintain your corner speed precisely, instead of losing and gaining speed all of the time.

 

As always though, it depends. Corner speed isn't always the right answer.

 

In terms of fighting a missile, it largely depends on what type of missile you are fighting. F.e. a RADAR missile, you can attempt to beam, while a heater will steadfastly ignore any attempts at such things. The most surefire way to dodge ANY missile is a hard, instantaneous out of plane turn while dispensing APPROPRIATE countermeasures (chaff for RADAR, flare for heater).

 

What this essentially does is removes you from the missiles plane of motion. In the process, you are increasing closure, line of sight, and aspect, all of which makes executing the lead turn to your six all that much harder while remaining INSIDE of your turn circle. The goal here is to force an overshoot, if the countermeasures do not work while turning out of plane. If the CM spoof fails that is. If countermeasures work as intended, the missile should just blow straight past you with no second thoughts.

 

If unsure of what to do, an constantly rotating out of plane roll towards the weapon (or orthagonal roll as it is commonly known) is a last ditch attempt to force an overshoot by the missile.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Pyroflash

[Dudester22]

Some cool info here. Thanks!!

[Crescendo]

If you have issues with pulling too many g's and are finding it difficult to maintain a speed as a result, you could try setting a stronger curve on your pitch axis, say 25 or 30. This will 'dampen' the aircraft's pitching ability around the centre of the joystick while retaining full deflection at the extremes, thereby giving you finer control of the amount of g you will pull.

 

With experience you can accurately control your g without any curves of course, but it will be more sensitive and less forgiving.

 

EDIT: Regarding use of AB, you should use whatever thrust setting is required to maintain corner speed. If you are trying to pull as much as posisble most of the time this will require full AB. However, this is not always the case. For example, if your nose is below the horizon there will be certain times when full AB is undesirable because it will increase your speed above corner too rapidly. Furthermore, if you are overspeed and trying to turn, staying in full AB will delay your deceleration to corner. Essentially, maintaining corner is ensuring the correct balance between g and thrust. If you're too slow, you need to slacken off the g and/or apply full AB; if you're too fast you need to pull more g and/or come out of AB. As mentioned earlier, most of the time you will use full AB, so once you've established corner all you then have to do is pull as much as is required to neither gain nor lose speed. It's not terribly difficult, but it does require practice and self-discipline to pull efficiently when in a stressful situation. If you do it enough you will develop a feel for it.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Crescendo

[Pyroflash]

I would advise against using curves actually. Although they allow for finer control over your movements in certain positions, they remove it from others. And as long as you have a reasonably precise stick e.g. Warthog, you should not encounter any problems.

 

The DCS devs have stated their official opinion on the usage of curves, and the aircraft are designed to be flown without them. They are there to make your life easier, if you REALLY need them, but in reality, are a give and take relationship.

 

As has been said though, this will take practice. My advice is to go over a city, pick a building, and go around staring out the window to get a feel for what corner speed looks like outside. Because for most of the fight, this is going to be the only indication of your speed. Once you have that down, try some yo-yo's, know when you are slow, fast, etc., and what kind of corrections are required for fixing it.

 

As always though, keep in mind. The answer is 99% "it depends". Corner speed is not an answer. It is a factor in an equation. The answer is angles, but getting there involves analyzing you, your target, and the range, closure, turn rate, turn radius, aspect, line of sight rate, and energy state associated with him.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Pyroflash

[badger66]

What about engaging autothrust ?

[Robin_Hood]

I think auto-thrust since FC3 just keeps a power setting, not a speed anymore. And I don't think it really was an efficient way of doing it, it would pop the airbrakes when overspeed which is not always a good idea (it can be, tough).

 

Also, I think the stance of ED regarding curves applied to DCS aircraft, not sure they meant it for mid-fidelity aircraft.

[winchesterdelta1]

I took all this advice yesterday. And it helped a lot :)

I was chased by a Mig-29 yesterday when i was bugging out. I realized i could not outrun him and i had to take the initiative and engage him no matter what. I remembered this post so i tried to use the info as best as i could. I turned into him and kept my turn rate steady. With great results. The Mig-29 didn't stand a chance. He fired 2 missiles at me but they both fell short. This was going pretty fast and i think the Mig-29 was confused and frustrated that i didn't just run. After 1 shot trying to make him go defensive he made a terrible mistake and climbed to avoid. But i was really close on his 12 o'clock low. Now he just made himself a big juicy target. I fired a AIM 9 and he exploded in a great ball of fire.

I think this was the first really thought out engagement i ever did. All this with the help of the BVR topic, and this one on how to use turn radius.

 

I think I’m getting the hang of this slowly. Till 104th Mustang showed up on the 51st. With that guy in the air you can better just EJECT.

[Pyroflash]

I think auto-thrust since FC3 just keeps a power setting, not a speed anymore. And I don't think it really was an efficient way of doing it, it would pop the airbrakes when overspeed which is not always a good idea (it can be, tough).

 

Man, airbrakes are my go to method of dumping speed in route or fingertip, and they totally help in a one circle. Though, as you say, it is generally better not to use airbrakes, as they take away energy. Instead of using air brakes, it is better to simply go up. You lose some of that speed really quickly, and can better trade the energy you do have for more angles. By doing it this way, you conserve energy, and put yourself into an advantageous situation where you are forcing the bandit to bleed his energy by chasing you into space. It is important in this situation that you remember not to get outside the bandit's turn radius while doing this however; He will be able to bleed his energy to take a snapshot at you, or worse, if the range opens up too much (missiles). For the Eagle at 20,000', this usually means a little over a thousand feet, give or take a few hundred feet. For the MiG and flanker especially though, you have to be careful, as they can shrink their turn circle to a few hundred feet. They will be dog slow though, and unable to regain their lost energy easily, so focus on dodging their weapons first, and then use your energy advantage against them.

 

Pro tip: Against experienced Russian pilots, it is not possible to get saddled up behind a Flanker or MiG. They can shrink their turn circle down to almost nothing VERY QUICKLY, and can rate faster a speeds far lower than the Eagle. They will always jam you and force and overshoot while on defensive. Again, the Eagle does not have a control zone when it comes to fighting Russian jets, or even light fighters like the F-16C. Your main weapon in BFM is going to be energy. Keeping that up will save your life. Take snapshots against them, and stay high and fast at all times.

 

Super Pro Tip: Join an experienced squadron. It will be really difficult to understand these concepts fundamentally, and even harder to realize what to actually look for in the fight, without having someone go through the procedures with you. Furthermore, by trying to learn do-it-yourself BFM, you will pick up bad habits that will be harder to break as time goes on (it happens to everyone, and you will have plenty of senior regression moments. Everyone does, however, as a consequence of trying to incorporate newly learned skillsets into old techniques.).

 

Also, the 104th guys are great. If you ever want to get smoked in BVR, there is really no better place to look.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Pyroflash