Using the R-27

[popcorn]

Well, I've just learnt something. From the rear R-27ETs work best and from the front R-77s work best and even R-27ERs aren't too bad from that side either.

[popcorn]

Another interesting note - you can re-direct R-77s mid-flight. Just did it accidentally. Pressed Space with the controller wire and then locked target 2.

[FLANKERATOR]

Could you proof that please

 

I've seen more than a dozen of FC3 fights recently from the SATAC competition including all kind of missiles fired in all kind of parameters and situations. Neither the R-27 nor the AIM-120 were reliable every single time. They were both capable of hitting from a distance or unexpectedly miss within visual range. They may not be suffering from the same flaws but they certainly have both weaknesses (and strengths). For example, I personally found AIM-120's performance very dubious in CIC although it tracks better from a distance in comparison to the R-27 which seems more lethal within 6nm.

 

Bottom line: There is always room to make it better although I'm not a big fan of the "perfect missile" theory. I hope ED will always keep a small part of the missile guidance equation related to 'random failure'.

 

Keep reporting potential bugs but please quit thinking there is some kind of anti Russian conspiracy, remember how it all started with "Flanker", remember upcoming DCS: Su-27SM. ED is continuously listening and improving things. Let's keep it civilized and mature.

[pepin1234]

Let's keep it civilized and mature.

 

Till yet all the post have Keep this way, so please stop this rattle.

 

You think like that and I ask my self why the R-77 when lose track going down in balistic trayectory... Chaffs at 10km... 15 km losing track by notching... ECM on breaking lock on...

[GGTharos]

It is pretty typical for Radar guided missiles to have good function against high aspect, high closure targets, while heat seekers work best from the rear aspect. This is just a function of the physics of their detectors, and countermeasure and clutter rejection comes after that.

 

More modern missiles can do more things in different aspects, so this sort of high/low aspect performance starts to blur. Also as seeker technology improves, they may start to become very resistant or even immune to more traditional countermeasures.

 

In FC, this has always been represented by giving the 77 and 120 a better ECCM value compared to older missiles, but it is a simple way of modeling things and I imagine devs will improve things in the future. For now, the short term fix IMHO is to simply increase ECCM for all of those missiles.

 

Another interesting note - you can re-direct R-77s mid-flight. Just did it accidentally. Pressed Space with the controller wire and then locked target 2.

[Svend_Dellepude]

Another interesting note - you can re-direct R-77s mid-flight. Just did it accidentally. Pressed Space with the controller wire and then locked target 2.

 

Are you sure that was not just a coincidence?

AFAIK it is not possible but i could be wrong of course.

[Brisse]

Are you sure that was not just a coincidence?

AFAIK it is not possible but i could be wrong of course.

 

R-77 probably has that capability in real life as has built in datalink to recive command updates from the launching platform.

 

I think the R-27R/ER can do that too, but the T/ET does not have datalink.

[popcorn]

I tried it again and it didn't work. I think maybe it depends on whether the missile has reached the self-lock range or not.

[Brisse]

I tried it again and it didn't work. I think maybe it depends on whether the missile has reached the self-lock range or not.

 

Could also be that the missile is too far from the launching platform so the datalink cannot communicate.

 

Thats just a guess. :smartass:

[popcorn]

I'm struggling with AMRAAMs now. I can't seem to get the LRS mode to work. It keeps saying 'VISUAL' in the lower right corner of the HUD and refuses to see anything outside about 15km. Any tips greatly appreciated. The buttons for increasing scan range don't seem to even be working.

[Vivoune]

I wish I could help you popcorn, sadly I'm merely learning FC3 too. Trying to get into the Su-27 I can't see any 'LRS' or 'Visual' mode (Guess its an F-35C thing). As far as I can remember there's only BVR mode (SCAN or TWS) and CAS mode (with all the different sights it includes: boresight, vertical sight, helmet sight Fi0, Funnel, etc), I don't care much about the air to ground mode. On both modes you can use RADAR and/or IRST acquisition systems.

 

The buttons to increase Scan ranges are "Radar Scan Zone Increase/Decrease". Maybe try hitting the corresponding hotkeys assigned to it while in the control menu to see if it works as it should and highlight the command.

 

I'm just getting into the FC3 module, and I gotta say, these R-27ER mid-range missiles behavior are very hard to grasp. Sometimes it misses but it makes sense, sometimes they just don't even try to lead the target despite having a clear radar lock, launched at a reasonable range given the DLZ and still misses by several miles.

 

It's probably just me and my inexperience in that module but often on head-on fights, a second after missile launch it just goes straight forward, just like a rocket would do, no lead whatsoever. Looking at it through tacview tells me it most of the time goes right through the first batch of counter measures the enemy fighter released before usually banking left or right (nothing fancy). It's as if the missile just ignored my radar lock and just goes all nomnom for the first tasty chaff it sees. The only time I get successful hits with R-27ERs are when I use it on bigger targets, or if I use it as a close range missile (with the right angle), but not in BVR. Besides, as far as I can tell, it seems my targets are within visual range when I reach the ER missile's optimal range anyway (even if 'optimal' is relative to any situation).

 

All in all, what happens now is that I load a few ERs for testing and trial then I switch to 73ETs, 73Ts and R-73s when I can't afford to mess around.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Vivoune

[Exorcet]

I'm struggling with AMRAAMs now. I can't seem to get the LRS mode to work. It keeps saying 'VISUAL' in the lower right corner of the HUD and refuses to see anything outside about 15km. Any tips greatly appreciated. The buttons for increasing scan range don't seem to even be working.

I don't know why your buttons wouldn't be working (maybe there is a conflict somewhere?) but one tip for the F-15 is that you can control everything except elevation with the designator. Scroll to the top of the radar screen and the range increases. Opposite when you go to the bottom.

 

What do you mean that the HUD refuses to see anything? The F-15 doesn't have a HUD radar display like the Russian fighters. Visual mode for the AIM-120 is always active, even in LRS.

[Vivoune]

Well, I spent some more time on the Su-27, felt confident enough to get in its campaign, but I just can hardly hit anything, not that the enemy's having a great hit ratio either but I don't know, it feels a bit off. I really want to love that aircraft though.

 

Quick question: regular head-on fight, I got the enemy locked head-on aspect, waiting for the DLZ to be almost in the no-escape-zone then release an ER (while keeping the tgt lockedat all time until impact obsly), is it an optimal use of the ER/R? Cause a bunch of chaffs and a simple bank seems more than enough to completely loose the missile long before it even could be a threat to the maneuvering craft. I'd love to have the 'pros' opinions. Anyway it seems I just can't survive any fight with 2 or 3 F-16 against me and their 120 salvo spams and since that's a requisite to pass the first real mission of the Su-27 campaign I guess it's time to try the F-15C!

[Exorcet]

I've never played any of the campaigns, but I don't think you should be against 2-3 anythings unless you have 2-3 wingmen. ARH is always going to be an advantage over SARH, you need to find ways around it.

 

Anyway, I've had more success with the R-27 while diving below the target while shooting to minimize the chance of losing lock. Before that it took me quite a while to get used to R-27 range and performance (since I was more used to the F-15).

[RIPTIDE]

Well, I spent some more time on the Su-27, felt confident enough to get in its campaign, but I just can hardly hit anything, not that the enemy's having a great hit ratio either but I don't know, it feels a bit off. I really want to love that aircraft though.

 

Quick question: regular head-on fight, I got the enemy locked head-on aspect, waiting for the DLZ to be almost in the no-escape-zone then release an ER (while keeping the tgt lockedat all time until impact obsly), is it an optimal use of the ER/R? Cause a bunch of chaffs and a simple bank seems more than enough to completely loose the missile long before it even could be a threat to the maneuvering craft. I'd love to have the 'pros' opinions. Anyway it seems I just can't survive any fight with 2 or 3 F-16 against me and their 120 salvo spams and since that's a requisite to pass the first real mission of the Su-27 campaign I guess it's time to try the F-15C!

I have no idea if it's written into the codes/files in terms of different Jammer effectiveness, but F-16C AI with that damn ALQ centerline Jammer pod are difficult opponents, BVR. Missiles just blow past, burn through range is also close.

[Vivoune]

I've never played any of the campaigns, but I don't think you should be against 2-3 anythings unless you have 2-3 wingmen. ARH is always going to be an advantage over SARH, you need to find ways around it.

 

You got one wingmen and the both of you must protect four Su-25, three F-16 flank you after you rallied. From my understanding of the situation you got to go head on and engage the closing F-16 or else they just got a chance to engage the Su-25 which are pretty much sitting ducks and busy aligning for an objective of their own. Only time I got a kill was when I actually wasn't doing my job too well and 1 of them focused on the Su-25s (which got utterly ripped apart) the other was handled by my wingman which left me on a regular 1 on 1, I got close enough that I could get him with a heater, then my wingman lost his fight, 2 Su-25 were downed and I was up against the last 2 F-16, but when I realized that I already had a 120 moving in my turbine uhuh. eject eject eject.

 

I have no idea if it's written into the codes/files in terms of different Jammer effectiveness, but F-16C AI with that damn ALQ centerline Jammer pod are difficult opponents, BVR. Missiles just blow past, burn through range is also close.

 

They sure are fearsome opponents. I am merely starting FC3 though, just acquired it during the recent sale, so I know I probably am missing a lot of intel and doing enormous bad judgment calls and tactic choices but damn, it's really frustrating to see a mid-range semi-active missile behaving like an unguided rocket. ^^ I'll probably switch and try the F-15C, see how things fare from that side of the fence.

[winz]

That mission is badly designed, more closely, its design is wrongly interpreted to the user. The F-16s will only engeage when you get close to the border. Circle around Nalchik and no F-16 will take of. You can see that area in mission planner named 'US Sramble' or somethins similar.

 

But, be prepared that the following mission are even worse. 4xF-15C vs 4xSu-27, is a slaughter, because the R-27ER has hard time hitting anything and your wingman have serious issue with keeping the offensive and managing fuel (this fuel problem was present even in FC 2, I wonder when ED will tweak the AI afterburner usage). AWACS flying without escort and getting shot down before I even manage to get airborne is just cherry on top of the cake. I end up editing most of the missions from that campaign to give the red side atleast a fighting chanse.

Edited July 4, 2013 by winz

[Vivoune]

Hmm interesting. the first time I did it, I tried ignoring them considering the AWACS called them at a range over 100 and the convoy on a parallel course, (they were 'hot' tho so probably a mistake on my part in hoping they'd turn cold) but I ended up with a 120 that came out of nowhere, although I did put myself between the Su-25 and the F-16 to 'protect' the flank so I might have entered their ring of engagement. Thanks for the intel on what's to come! *sweat*

 

Edit: tried the F-15C, it might just be me but it feels like night and day compared to the Su-27, the radar is nice and handy, AIM-120 missiles lead my tgt so despite some expected misses I get to hit things (yay), the horsepower seems to make it a nice energy fighter too and that punch comes in handy given the yoyo I tend to be in mid range dogfights, all in all my success rate sky rocketed (well.. nothing extraordinary considering it was probably nearing like 10-20%). I'll probably stick to the F-15C for now, grab some fighting xp and try the Russian fighters later on when I feel more comfortable in my understanding of the dogfights subtleties.

 

Edit2: Just retried a sixth time that Su-27 mission but the F-16s come to the su-25 despite me staying out of it all, so you are supposed to fight them, which obviously is way way over my skill set even with labels on. I can't fight decently with the Su-27, F-15C landing is bugged as hell, well, that was the two aircrafts I was interested in FC3. Back to the A-10C.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Vivoune