aha! this is why the f-15's flies in a "gay" way..

[Teknetinium]

Look at it from this perspective, If US pilots were flying MIG-29A VS F-15 whit same advantage in numbers,AWAC, EWR, GSI, SAMS, would it make MIG-29A better plane then F-15?

I would not think so...

U can't draw a conclusion from any of F-15s engagements because they have not been fear. War Is not, its not what im trying to say, its that U can't prove anything from those engagements. On till U have a clean fight between to machines and pilots.

[Yeniceri]

What did F-15 see on air so far?..

Any Su-27 kills?

Any mig-29 kills?

Any Su-33 kils?

 

No , no and no..

 

Until that day when they come across each other with killing in mind,

we will never know.

 

I remember the times when nobody seen flanker yet and they were saying cobra is impossible and nothing but propaganda. And i remember times when ppl says no aircraft can take that kind of AOA and keep on flying etc, etc..

 

here is a joke..

Two friends(2 F-15's if you prefer :) ) reads an add one day that says " We will pay 1000 dollars for each native african tribesman's skull". With dreams of getting rich they go to Africa and start walking around in deep forests in hope of finding an african tribesman. Of course they are lost and tired and hungry, They find a huge tree and crawl right near it and sleep. When one of them wakes up, he sees thousands of hunters with spears and arrows surrounded them..He pokes his friend and says " Wake up! We are rich!!"

 

Sorry for poor translation but i guess it says all about F-15 and Flanker :)

[GGTharos]

You're right, I guess the F-15 hasn't proven anything other than its ability to shoot down MiG-29A's and a bunch of other Russian equipment, too ... it's not like they didn't get into 1v1's when in Israeli hands, or in Desert Storm, not at all. ;)

 

Su-27's have so far had a great record! They have absolutely proven themselves after shooting down a bunch of MiG-29A's and UAV's :D

[Teknetinium]

I know there was exercise engagement in India between Su-30 and F-15E, correct me if Im wrong. dose anyone know how that ended, I would not draw any conclusions there I guise there were no missiles involved. dose anyone have the link still?

[Cosmonaut]

I know there was exercise engagement in India between Su-30 and F-15E, correct me if Im wrong. dose anyone know how that ended, I would not draw any conclusions there I guise there were no missiles involved. dose anyone have the link still?

 

India won but no conclusions can be made from the results other than the USAF wanted to justify the expense of the F22. The ROE prevented both sides from using their best weapons and tactics so basically it was a public relations exercise.

 

Personally I think updating the F15 would have been more cost effective before the transition to the F35 and then unmanned drones ... but as an aviation enthusiast I can appreciate the insane capabilities of the F22. Would make for a boring sim though ;) .

 

Just goolge Cope India.

 

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/exercise-cope-india-article02.html

 

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/000976.html

[Teknetinium]

Thx Cosmonaft.

[Pilotasso]

There are Upgrades to F-15's but only a handfull were infact upgraded. The novelty is the APG-63V2 AESA.

[GGTharos]

Actually, several hundred are getting the upgrades, IIRC ... including datalink. Some are getting the APG-63v2, some the APG-63v3.

 

Edit: My bad. The Elmendorf F-15C's are equipped with the v2 (18 aircraft) and the v3 has been selected to equip several USANG F-15C's, and all of the F-15E's in the USAF. In addition it is exported on the F-15SG, IIRC, and so on and so forth. Depending on budgets, I believe all active F-15C units will be trying to get the v3/4.

[D-Scythe]

There are Upgrades to F-15's but only a handfull were infact upgraded. The novelty is the APG-63V2 AESA.

 

183 are gonna be upgraded. All are gonna be equipped with the APG-63V3, like the rest of the F-15E fleet, AFAIK. Though it's not planned, it's been rumored they might get a re-engined - hopefully with Dash 229s, but probably with Dash 220Es.

[Bert]

it's not like they didn't get into 1v1's when in Israeli hands, or in Desert Storm, not at all. ;)

 

 

Is there ANY evidence they did? or is it like the Israeli claim of landing with one wing, where miraculously no one thought to get a camera ready for the landing that they had 20 minutes warning of ?;)

[Pilotasso]

That imagery was photoshoping made by the History channel. :)

 

But it didnt hapen. Just no one filmed it.

[GGTharos]

What does that landing (which is real) have to do with 1v1's?

 

And yes, there were 1v1's. Not only is there evidence, there's after-action reports and I'm pretty sure you can hear about some of them on Dogfights or something.

[Bert]

I havnt seen it, got links

[Frostie]

And yes, there were 1v1's. Not only is there evidence, there's after-action reports and I'm pretty sure you can hear about some of them on Dogfights or something.

Dogfights would that be the one where four F-15's pick on a sole Serbian Mig and then almost shoot down their own F-117 twice then narrowly miss a collision with it, or the four Israeli F-15's obliterating the vastly superior Mig-21?:D

 

Watch too much TV and you'll forget how one sided these shows are , do you ever see Me262, FW190 or the like downing Brit and US planes, or is it all about the Spit and Mustang?

 

F-15 has the best combat air record of any current fighter, unbeaten in aerial combat but so is the SeaHarrier but I wouldn't claim that to be the second best, the same as I wouldn't say the Eagle is better than the Flanker because there is no proof just word of mouth.

[RedTiger]

10+ years of Western advances in electronics and miniaturization in an unhindered economy coming from an initial position of an advantage vs. Eastern equipment.

 

That is all.

[Shaman]

F-15C hasn't met an opponent of equal size and capabilities,..yet.

And let's hope it will actually never happen...

 

PEACE

[Vekkinho]

10+ years of Western advances in electronics and miniaturization in an unhindered economy coming from an initial position of an advantage vs. Eastern equipment.

 

That is all.

 

That was all, but 20+ years ago.

 

Nowadays, with general worldwide availability of various products eastern equipment can be brought to western standards (read NATO) in blink of an eye! No more block politics today! Highest bidder gets a bigger share! Think of India upgrading its Fulcrum fleet, mixing western electornics with eastern aerodynamics and sturdiness! MiG-MAPO and Sukhoi can install any western hardware into Fulcrums pr Flankers and the only limit is the amount of money you're willing to pay!

[S77th-konkussion]

Not all of it, they can't.

[GGTharos]

Dogfights would that be the one where four F-15's pick on a sole Serbian Mig and then almost shoot down their own F-117 twice then narrowly miss a collision with it, or the four Israeli F-15's obliterating the vastly superior Mig-21?:D

 

Did I mention Serbian MiGs? No. Would that be your own presumptuous assumption here? It would be ;)

I'm refering to the merge between a USAF F-15 and an Iraqi MiG-29 which resulted in a maneuver kill. There were other close engagements in desert storm also and hey, guess what - no AMRAAMs.

 

That MiG-21, AFAIK, is the F-15's only gun kill, and it's pretty darned valid. ;)

 

Watch too much TV and you'll forget how one sided these shows are , do you ever see Me262, FW190 or the like downing Brit and US planes, or is it all about the Spit and Mustang?

 

I'm pretty sure I've seen vids from both sides. The case still is that no F-15C has been shot down by a Russian-made aircraft (Though there was a friendly fire incident between two F-15Js)

 

F-15 has the best combat air record of any current fighter, unbeaten in aerial combat but so is the SeaHarrier but I wouldn't claim that to be the second best, the same as I wouldn't say the Eagle is better than the Flanker because there is no proof just word of mouth.

 

Heh, I don't know, the cassegrain radar antenna seems to already peg the flanker as 'second best'. Only recently has the flanker been coming to 'level', and yet its weaponry isn't stacking up, not is it up to par with -current- F-15C's.

[Pilotasso]

Dogfights would that be the one where four F-15's pick on a sole Serbian Mig and then almost shoot down their own F-117 twice then narrowly miss a collision with it, or the four Israeli F-15's obliterating the vastly superior Mig-21?:D

 

..and vastly more numerous Mig-21 (and 23's and 25's).

 

Watch too much TV and you'll forget how one sided these shows are , do you ever see Me262, FW190 or the like downing Brit and US planes, or is it all about the Spit and Mustang?

 

F-15 has the best combat air record of any current fighter, unbeaten in aerial combat but so is the SeaHarrier but I wouldn't claim that to be the second best, the same as I wouldn't say the Eagle is better than the Flanker because there is no proof just word of mouth.

 

Its easy to resort to american TV programs as propaganda, and call ignorance to testify in the case. One should take it with a grain of salt, but for the same reason should we actualy look into it and at the same time filter one other method of publicity: Airshow stunts.

 

Doesnt take a rocket scientist to know the flanker has been lagging behind in updates for decades, and lacks newly built weapons. After all what can you do if all your missiles are 20+ years old?

 

Shoot AMRAAM turn away and watch the oppsition run or take it in the face. Just like in LOMAC. ;)

[RedTiger]

That was all, but 20+ years ago.

 

Nowadays, with general worldwide availability of various products eastern equipment can be brought to western standards (read NATO) in blink of an eye! No more block politics today! Highest bidder gets a bigger share! Think of India upgrading its Fulcrum fleet, mixing western electornics with eastern aerodynamics and sturdiness! MiG-MAPO and Sukhoi can install any western hardware into Fulcrums pr Flankers and the only limit is the amount of money you're willing to pay!

 

First of all, I think you're overestimating their capabilities to do that on a large scale, I'm afraid. Second, even if your not, it took how long to get equipment thats on parity with Western kit thats 20+ years old? The advancements that can be made in that time frame are boggling. Case in point, while Mikoyan and Sukhoi are hawking Flankers and Fulcrums, others are fielding Raptors, F-35s, Aim-120Ds, Meteor's etc.

 

Personally, I'm putting my money on the F-35. I think that it will be the "gun that wins the west" so to speak. :) I have a feeling that in several years it will be just as common as the F-16 is now. Its an affordable 5th gen multi-role fighter, and that alone sounds like an oxymoron. :D

[Bert]

F35 affordable?, it WAS meant to be, but hasnt turned out that way, in fact it hasnt turned out anything but prototypes yet so I think your being more than a little presumptious with your estimations

[S77th-GOYA]

Not affordable for every country. Some countries can afford all they will need.

[Vekkinho]

If you take a look at History Chanell - Dogfights show you'll notice how strongly biased it is. I remember one called "Dogfights of the Desert Storm" where US Eagles shot some F-1C that was in pursuit of EF-111, couple of MiG-29 over H1 and H2 and came home to talk about it.

 

Interesting thing is that I saw no defensive maneuvers from Iraqi side, be it a poor pilot not even knowing what's about to happen, be it an old airframe missing vital parts after many years of embargo.

 

I saw no offensive manuevers too, 'cause I don't think those Iraqi planes were armed at all. No misslies on hardpoints! None of them tried to gain a firing solution as pictured in that show!

[Bert]

Not affordable for every country. Some countries can afford all they will need.

 

Nope...even U.S.A have cut numbers from initial requirements