Free SU 25T VS SU 25A

[Maverick-X]

Is not a plane to do that task, there other platforms to do that job.

 

But in case that we find and spike of a low defence system like a tunguska, thor or even an Gecko, we can triangulate it´s position safely out of his range and search with the TGP and engage with a mav. Of course is slower than do it in a Toad. example:

 

And also, If we need we can engage better defence systems doing what this plane does best... flying low.

 

I agree with your post, but not with the capability of taking aut Thors with Mavericks. I tried several times, even flew into launchrange so it focuses on me instead of the Mav. I got shot at AND the Mav was intercepted... these things are beasts!

 

(although I have to say, I never ancountered a single Thor, can you take 1 down with ~2 mavs?)

[CypherGrunyev]

So basically only because it has more ATGM missile's I'm supposed to believe it's better in every aspect?

 

IIRC, That little pod on the direct front of the aircraft controls it's laser designator. On the front of an aircraft. Meaning if it's shot at and knocked out, all those VIKHR missile's are screwed.

 

Mavericks have the seeker head built-in. Yes, the MFCD on the A-10C can go out, but it still has boresight with the HUD to keep it going even after massive hits.

 

As for the SEAD issue... We have The AGM-88 for a reason. The fact it can't be put on an A-10C doesn't mean it's not an option and wouldn't be in theater. Also enjoy that ELINT pod sacrificing your payload and those SEAD missiles taking up KH-25 slots. A-10C wouldn't have that problem... now would it? :)

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=111704

 

Not to mention with the release of the APKV... America enters the fray of Precision guided rockets...

Edited October 21, 2013 by CypherGrunyev

[Grimes]

You way expanded onto real life too much. Stick to DCS.

I kill Patriot with Kh-25MPU from 50km in DCS.

Real life can only be theorized here, that's why we have DCS to simulate.

 

There is such a thing as incorrect simulation. For example, yes you can get in a situation to destroy a Patriot with a Kh-25MPU from 50km. One situation is that there are no other threats to contend with. Another is the mission builder didn't place all of the launchers to give it 360 degrees of coverage and you could be exploiting that weakness. There are plenty more situations that are applicable to both DCS and reality which are either shared or unique to either realm of "testing." Besides, simply stating that it can be done does not mean that it can ALWAYS be done. Whenever I see comments like yours I view it as a "feather in your cap" and nothing more.

 

The A-10C pilot from your example screenshots is probably "aware" in the sense that they were told the Su-25T was there and that all Su-25T pilots vision is based on movement, much like a T-rex. Thus if the A-10 doesn't make any sudden movements in hopes that you have failed to spot him. Much like a T-rex, the Su-25T pilot wants to hunt, it doesn't want to be fed. So your test goes against the Su-25Ts nature by putting both pilots on a head-on aspect at equal altitude, dare I say they spawned that way, to prove the point that a Su-25T (Trex) can hit a non maneuvering A-10c (goat chained to a pole) with an ATGM and in doing so is a glorious victory of inevitability for the Su-25T.

 

In my opinion the fact that the test was in multiplayer makes no difference aside from verifying that yes Vikhers are the same in single player and in multiplayer. You could have easily done the exact same test with the exact same results against an AI and setting the AI to not react to threats because that is exactly how the other pilot flew like...

[Maverick-X]

So all you got from my long post is that it has more missiles?

Not that they are longer range and faster?

Not that Su-25T has more survivability and the pod alone doesn't make it as large as A-10C is empty..

 

[...]

 

Lock at 15+ km, 2 Vikhr-M Launch at 15km, hit at 8.2 km. He's dead.

It's quite realistic, because Vikhr-M never goes outside the 10km laser beam range as it rides it towards the target.

 

If you manage to get a stable TGP lock on and a maverick launch on a faster moving Sukhoi, from farther distance, good luck.. otherwise you have to wait for Aim-9 launch and against a good Frogfoot pilot, it'd be too late..

 

Nice discussion, hope you dont bring it to a flamewar ^^

 

The Su may be fast, but it burns fuel like hell. If you want to load heavy weaponry and still climb faster than a dove you have to sacrifice fuel. If there is a 50+km way to the target Area you dont have much time to look around, get a picture of whats going on and engage multiple times.

 

The A10 on the other side has very efficient turbofans, ofc it is slow, but for CAS it doesn't need to be fast.

 

For the 1v1 combat situation, I personally think it is quite hard to find an A10 cruising at FL 14+, and this comes prior to your Vikhr shot. When the engagement starts closer the A10 is clearly in advantage because of the better turn rate. In the end a 1v1 fight is no matter of theoretical discussion, but of the very situation and the SA of the Pilots, and ofc of their skill.

 

I agree Vikhr is an awesome Missile, but if you get into an A2A engagement with a Bandit already close, your only real option imho is to drop all ordnance and try to give him a SRM. But still with wings clean the turnrate of the Su25T is anything but good.

 

I recall some1 to have said Vikhr has double the range compared to the Mav, dunno who it was. This is simply not true! The Vikhr can be launched at up to 15km, the Mav gets a solid lock at least at 7nm, wich is roughly 13km. The Mav(H) can also be launched in force correlate mode, wich gives a Rmax of about 12-15nm ~ 25km.

 

I personally am not a very good Su Pilot, I was kinda surprised of the capabilities of its RWR as I just read, need to learn more on this topic! But nether the less, the A10 gives you a better situational awareness, as you can mark Targets and have a good overview on the TAD.

 

In my opinion, it is hard to compare these 2 planes. The one is a fast bomber capable of multiple mission roles, the one is a dedicated slow CAS-Tankbuster. I guess both have their up's and down's.

 

To get at last a little thing onto the actual topic:

I like the flight behavior of the Su25, the T although has better avionics and guided weapons. The 25 is fun to fly, real good rocket truck. The T is better in handling AA and MBT's.

[REPUBLICANO]

 

You do not mention nothing about GAU-8, it´s the essence of the plane. With enough rounds to open several tanks and transform them in cabriolets.

 

extremely heavy gun for do nothing at the 21ts century. Only the enemy should set some IR air-defence and this cannon is useless. For afganisthan is great but not for strelas/Igla users.

 

 

 

Is not a plane to do that task, there other platforms to do that job.

 

But in case that we find and spike of a low defence system like a tunguska, thor or even an Gecko, we can triangulate it´s position safely out of his range and search with the TGP and engage with a mav. Of course is slower than do it in a Toad. example:

 

And also, If we need we can engage better defence systems doing what this plane does best... flying low.

 

Honestly. You are kidding us. So you triangulate with pause. :megalol: What else you do in SP. I would like see you in MP.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know, we are comparing apples and oranges. Just I disagree with your sentence "This aircraft is the most capable air-to-ground, more so than A-10A/C."

 

The A-10C is awesome, but the Su-25T is even more. It is the reality.

 

Right now you do a Su-25T with full avionic and you become rich, everybody will buy it.

[Maverick-X]

Honestly. You are kidding us. So you triangulate with pause. :megalol: What else you do in SP. I would like see you in MP.

 

What has triangulation to do with pause???

[REPUBLICANO]

What has triangulation to do with pause???

 

Did you watch the video already?

[Fri13]

Please, do not jump to conclusion about any DCS aircraft, as all of them are modeled at the most realistic level on PC hardware to date.

FSX, IL2 and even BMS are an arcade/game feel of actual flying compared to DCS. This is the future, and EDGE.

DCS: WWII will put IL-2 COD to sleep and DCS: F/A-18E will tell BMS good night. :)

 

Are you finished? :)

 

Even that many DCS modules have great flight modeling, there are still many flaws in many aircrafts in Flaming Cliffs 3. Example Su-27 isn't nearly as maneuverable as it should.

Microsoft FSX is good in many positions but not bad one. It has as well bad FM in some planes or some situations, like helicopters FM is just terrible without addons what fix it to some level, it is great when flying specific planes. Heck, we even have missiles flying trough trees and planes flying trough trees and radar seeing trough trees. :)

 

Also DCS has modeled all the weapons/systems realistically to the best knowledge available. And now that the missiles have AFM as well, it's as real as it gets. And you can use 3D Vision and TrackIR to immerse you further.

 

I wish it would be so as you say. But the weapons/systems are flawed even in very basic level. Example, there are no fragments from missiles, bombs, shells or rockets. Sometimes you can see very weird things to happen for missiles like they do 90 degree sharp turn (this is very rare thing but can happen in single player).

Alone the missing fragments cause situation where weapons are not at all as effective as they should be.

 

DCS is awesome but it isn't great and far from perfect. We need to get the new EDGE game engine and hope that those basic missing features (LOS, fragments etc) are fixed with it.

[Fri13]

Every time I take out my SU-25T, slap on the ELINT pod and some SEAD missiles, I get painted almost instantly by enemies.

 

What is in ELINT and its ARM what cause enemy to spot you? Ain't those passive?

[Fishbreath]

One thing about the Su-25 vs. the Su-25T is that the Su-25, while having 1000kg less fuel, is so much better on thrust to weight that the fuel it has lasts longer. Normal flight for me in the Su-25 is about 80-90% engine RPM, which yields a reasonable cruise and enough power for maneuvering in a target area. The -25T needs north of 90% engine RPM in most circumstances, I find.

[Maverick-X]

What is in ELINT and its ARM what cause enemy to spot you? Ain't those passive?

could be a greater radar-crosssection?

There can't be a relation between activation of the ELNIT and getting painted.

 

Did you watch the video already?

 

I know the video, he points the rwr-spike on his 3 o'clock, makes an overhead waypoint and a second one heading 100nm 90° to his current hdg. Does it a 2nd time and he has a triangulated point where the sam roughly could be.

 

I ask you again what triangulation has to do with pause?!

Edited October 24, 2013 by Maverick-X

[ENO]

I think he means "POS."

[REPUBLICANO]

I ask you again what triangulation has to do with pause?!

 

Well I guess you have seen the pilot pause the game to insert something in his system. So if you like show the procedure for triangulate how come you pause the game? this video say nothing real.

 

By the way, how the A-10C can get distance with this procedure??

 

Normally you can get distance with the russian RWR, but you need experience, anyway the super toat does not need that, just take the phantasmagoria and he make a Home Run.

:thumbup:

[blkspade]

He actually engaged the autopilot altitude hold. If you look at the video again more closely you'll see that his distance from the waypoint is changing, and thus not paused.

 

Well I guess you have seen the pilot pause the game to insert something in his system. So if you like show the procedure for triangulate how come you pause the game? this video say nothing real.

 

By the way, how the A-10C can get distance with this procedure??

 

Normally you can get distance with the russian RWR, but you need experience, anyway the super toat does not need that, just take the phantasmagoria and he make a Home Run.

:thumbup:

[Maverick-X]

Well I guess you have seen the pilot pause the game to insert something in his system. So if you like show the procedure for triangulate how come you pause the game? this video say nothing real.

 

By the way, how the A-10C can get distance with this procedure??

 

Normally you can get distance with the russian RWR, but you need experience, anyway the super toat does not need that, just take the phantasmagoria and he make a Home Run.

:thumbup:

 

You don't seem to know what triangulation means. Triangulation is a process to find the source of an emmitted signal by using two recievers detecting the signals direction or range. The A10 does it vía direction. You simply have your first position and the direction to the enemy, and your second position with the direction. The lines from first and second position in the direction of the enemy should cross near the emitters location.

 

Ofc the Su doesn't need such procedures as it is fitted for Sead Missions, but as you should have seen by now, it is possible to find a launcher by its radiation even in the A10.

[CypherGrunyev]

..

 

AGM-88 is not on A-10C and never has been.

You way expanded onto real life too much. Stick to DCS.

 

 

When did I say the AGM-88 can be used on the A-10C?

 

 

DCS is a Combat Simulator. It's modeled EXTENSIVELY after reality. I would have to say it relies HEAVILY on real life as a by-product. Doesn't mean however that how we REACT to it is real.

 

Extending into the arguement; I'm positive no russian commander would send his SU-25T's into combat knowing there would be enemy fighters. And even if there were, no sane Russian Pilot would say "I feel like playing ATGM wars with that F-15!" so the situation where the Vikhr-M would ever be used is preposterous. Wars are fought combined arms like. A-10C wouldn't deploy to an AO that hadn't been at least partially sanitized yet.

 

So yes. The SU-25T wins in a simulator where death is just a loading screen to us.

 

What is in ELINT and its ARM what cause enemy to spot you? Ain't those passive?

 

I don't really know actually. I figured they were active. Musta just had REALLY shitty CAP then...

[REPUBLICANO]

You don't seem to know what triangulation means. Triangulation is a process to find the source of an emmitted signal by using two recievers detecting the signals direction or range. The A10 does it vía direction. You simply have your first position and the direction to the enemy, and your second position with the direction. The lines from first and second position in the direction of the enemy should cross near the emitters location.

 

Ofc the Su doesn't need such procedures as it is fitted for Sead Missions, but as you should have seen by now, it is possible to find a launcher by its radiation even in the A10.

 

Got it. not bad idea but much work for a single A-10C. Maybe with a couple of them is better.

[Maverick-X]

Got it. not bad idea but much work for a single A-10C. Maybe with a couple of them is better.

 

Perhaps, but the Problem is merging the Data what again leads to some workload. The A10 is not suited for SEAD/DEAD in regards of aircraft characteristics and partially sensors and armament.

You cant change the flight characteristics. You have an atleast kind off suited armament with the AGM-65 but finding the target is the essential point, especially regarding the threat of the target to yourself.

 

Triangulation is a good possibility to gain an estimate on the Position and I'd say worth the time as long it is not a rural area or a Su25T in the Area.

 

This is also a good point to compare Su25 vs Su25T. The Su25, or at least me piloting it, have a hard time engaging enemy Airdefences. Equiped with an ELNIT Pod and SEAD or Vikhr missiles it is a lot easier.