BF 109 K4

[tapi]

Ventilbaterieumschalter:

What is purpose of this lever?

 

Bf 109 K

 

Could it be "netzeinshaltung" i.e. connecting el. net [bordnetz] to accumulator [sammler]?

 

Bf109 E used knob on the right side behind the seat:

 

 

Bf 109F as well:

 

 

Bf 109G has handle with bowden cable:

 

 

So I thing Bf 109K should have something similar... But name "ventilbaterieum" (accumulator valve) is somewhat confusing...

 

BTW: there is on every bf 109 version button on the instrument panel for disconnecting el. net [bordnetz] from accumulator. Button is called Netzausschalter:

 

Edited November 17, 2013 by tapi

[Lord_Pyro]

Ventil = Valve

Batterie = Battery

Umschalter = Switch

 

I don't know what Valvebattery you switch there though.

[DB 605]

Ventilbaterieumschalter:

What is purpose of this lever?

 

Bf 109 K

 

Check post #7 from this thread :)

[tapi]

I read #7 before my post :-)

But I simply don't understand why you think that "battery valve switch" = switch between normal fuel and MW 50? Would you give as pls source for this claim or explain that?

IMHO accumulator has something to do with el. circuit and MW50 with fuel circuit - two different things. But may be I am wrong... I just want to understand how things in cockpit works :-) (no flame)

[sobek]

Batterie can stand for an electrochemic cell as well as for an array of something. It seems likely that in this case, it is an array of valves rather than valves related to the battery, since in the latter case it would state "Batterieventil", not "Ventilbatterie".

[tapi]

I found this info from JAPO:

 

MW50 was activated by moving throttle lever to position "Notleistung" (110%). This connected electric circuit (by means of cam located on the throttle rod) which opened valve and thus enabled flow of working substance from 118 L tank located behind fuel tank into the nozzle leading into compresor. (Japo - Bf 109 K, p. 27 - translation from czech language)

 

And two ilustrations from the same book:

 

 

13 = Valve battery

21 = Valve accumulator lever

 

 

I don't understand functions of switches 6, 7, 8 and 9 and don't know their exact locations in cockpit as well...

 

BTW: how is activated bordnetz in Bf 109K ? (see post #77)

Edited November 17, 2013 by tapi

[Kurfürst]

Its a switch between "MW Stoff" delivery and "Fuel delivery"

 

The 109K, unlike earlier MW boosted variants had a dual purpose rear tank - either for ca. 85 liters MW 50 or for 115 liters of fuel - the purpose of the switch was to supply the rear tank either into the eye of the supercharger (MW injection) or feed it into the main 400 liter fuel tank (when fuel was carried).

 

Obviously it was not good for the engine if that switch was accidentally set to the wrong position. ;)

[tapi]

Thanks Kurfürst, it is clear know to me. I am curious if DCS is going to model this feature :-)

 

And what about other MW50 controlers in cockpit? (see my last picture from JAPO - post #83 - but WARNING: in english desription there are mistakes in numbers!!!).

Using drawing from original manual:

 

Japo picture (corrected numbers) = original cockpit drawing

4 accumulator valve (not in cockpit)

5 switching lever for accumulator valve = 4 Schalthebel für Ventillbaterie

6 automatic switch on instrument panel = 25 Kippschalter für MW - Anlage

7 switch on control panel = ?

8 switch at throttle lever = ? (rocker switch on throttle handgrip not used for manual prop pitch now?)

9 cam on the throttle lever (not operated by pilot)

10 pressure gauge = 34 Druckanzeigegerat für MW Anlage

 

 

 

 

English translation (from manual for FSX Bf 109K from Flight Replicas):

 

Edited November 18, 2013 by tapi

[Kurfürst]

Thanks Kurfürst, it is clear know to me.

 

Actually DB 605 beat me to it at the very beginning of thread.. so this switch needs to be modelled and added to 3d/system model.

 

And what about other MW50 controlers in cockpit? (see my last picture from JAPO - post #83 - but WARNING: in english desription there are mistakes in numbers!!!).

 

IIRC the actual MW 50 "ON" flip switch was located just under the undercarriage indicator, on the lower left part of the dashboard. A manometer was provided to the right of the Revi to check MW 50 pressure - no pressure would mean that MW liquid had run out or, more likely, some malfunction in the system. Given that on high boost operations without MW the engine would be knocking or otherwise endangered, this would signify the pilot to cut back on throttle to safe boost levels.

[Yo-Yo]

Its a switch between "MW Stoff" delivery and "Fuel delivery"

 

The 109K, unlike earlier MW boosted variants had a dual purpose rear tank - either for ca. 85 liters MW 50 or for 115 liters of fuel - the purpose of the switch was to supply the rear tank either into the eye of the supercharger (MW injection) or feed it into the main 400 liter fuel tank (when fuel was carried).

 

Obviously it was not good for the engine if that switch was accidentally set to the wrong position. ;)

 

There is the same question we have solved for 190D9 - what mean was used to increase MP as MW-50 is engaged?

[Kurfürst]

There is the same question we have solved for 190D9 - what mean was used to increase MP as MW-50 is engaged?

 

Recalling from memory: there was no separate mechanism to give greater boost depending on MW is on or off. the throttle lever was simply set-up to provide greater manifold pressure at max. setting, so pilot was not to push throttle above "Kampfleistung" position if MW was not engaged prior. When throttle was re-setup for MW boost levels (it was advised to allow some 5-10 hours of run-in for new engines before MW use, but this was not strict and allowance was made for emergency needs), former "Startleistung" could not be achieved.

 

But I will have to check it. But as I understand, the throttle was simply moved forward and it gave more boost. There was some kind of blocking, presumably a wire to warn pilot of exceeding Kampfeistung (1,35/1,45ata).

 

If MW was engaged prior - good. If not engaged prior, all sorts of nasty sounds were soon to be coming from engine. When this starts is another question. It seems B4 fuel was good up to at least 1,5ata, C3 fuel - up to 1,8 ata without knocking - these ratings were given by engine manual of DB/DC engine for "dry" (no MW) Startleistung.

 

But I need to check papers to be sure. This is from memory.

[Altflieger]

For yoyo, Daimler Benz patent for the hydraulic coupling for engine and the blower.

http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=worldwide.espacenet.com&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19390825&CC=GB&NR=511858A&KC=A

Gives details of operation.

[Altflieger]

http:// Edited November 18, 2013 by Altflieger
getting pix added

[Altflieger]

Sorry bit useless adding images! The above is diagram of mw50 installation, works like so.

Air is drawn from II (bottom left) along NW6 valve inline permits tank to be pressurised to 0.6 ata over outside air pressure. Mw50 switch upper centre 'arms' system by supplying power to V44 (lower left). Moving throttle lever past 100% completes circuit and mw50 along nw10 enters blower via I (centre left). Manometer must read 0.6 to use the system. IIRC this is from G14 installation but think K4 would have been the same (see Kurfurst),

Edited November 18, 2013 by Altflieger
forgetfullness

[tapi]

Very ilustrative scheme, thanks Altflieger.

 

As for pilot's controls for MW50 it seems to me there are only 4:

 

1) Switching lever for accumulator valve [schalthebel für Ventillbaterie] on left side of cockpit (JAPO scheme n. 5, Cockpit orig. scheme n. 4) - select between MW50 or Fuel stored in MW50 tank.

 

2) Ein-Aus switch [Einsatzklarschalter] on instrument panel (JAPO scheme n.7, Cockpit orig. scheme n.25)

 

3) Security switch [sicherungsschalter] somewhere on the (right) side of cockpit (JAPO scheme n. 6, Cockpit orig. scheme n. ??)

 

4) Throttle lever in position "Notleistung" (110%) - cam (JAPO scheme n. 9) cause to switch the [schleppschalter] ON (JAPO scheme n. 8 ).

 

(2, 3 and 4 must all be ON in order to complete el. circuit for start using MW50)

 

JAPO scheme:

(Causion: english description has mistakes in numbers)

 

Edited November 19, 2013 by tapi

[Kodoss]

Fuel and circuit lines from the Bf 109 K-4 handbook:

 

 

The dashed line is the MW 50 fuel line.

21 - mechanical switch for 13 - valve row (Ventilbatterie)

22 - circuit breaker

23 - Stand-by-switch (Einsatzklarschalter) at the intrument panel

24 - on-switch; activated through the throttle-lever

Edited November 19, 2013 by Kodoss

[tapi]

I think, only one question concerning managing MW50 in Bf 109K now remains:

Where in cockpit is located "circuit breaker" alias "Security switch" alias "Sicherungsschalter"?

I guess it should be one of the buttons on the "Circuit breaker panel" (left side).

[Kodoss]

Circuit breaker panel

X 15A - marks the 15 Ampere circuit breaker and the and the connected device

+ marks the also connected device to the circuit breaker above

170W - constant needed power

(80W) - needed power

 

Front circuit breaker line

X 75A | Generator 24V 2000W

X 15A | Staurohr (pitot heater) 130W

+ | Sichtscheibenheizung (window heating) 170W

+ | Heizhandschuhe (heated gloves) 30W

X 5A | Kennlichter (position lights) 20W 5W 20W

X 5A | UV Leuchten (UV lights) 20W 20W

X 20A | Bildgeraete [Aufklaerer] (recon camera) (140W)

+ | Flügel Waffen (either Werferanlage WG 21 (80W) or wing MG: MG 151(/20) (1000W with an additional 15A circuit breaker per MG) or MK 108 (200W w/o additional circuit breaker))

+ | Abwurfwaffe (bomb rack) (180W)

X 15A | Fernkompass (compass) 2W

+ | Messgeraete (instruments) 12W

+ | Fahrwerkueberwachung (landing gear) 6W

+ | Revibeleuchtung (Revi light) 20W

+ | Leuchtmunition-Abschussanlage (signal ammunition device) (240W)

+ | Kabinendruckueberwachung (cabin pressure control) 3W

+ | KGM1 Anlage [MW] (MW injection device) (50W)

+ | Anlasszuendung (starter ignition) (50W)

+ | Wendehorizont (turn indicator) 50W

+ | Verstell-Luftschraube (adjustable propeller) (250W)

[X 10A | Scheinwerfer [Ruestsatz] (landing lights (2x 100W) ) ]

 

Rear circuit breaker line

X 75A | Battery 24 V 7,5 Ah

X 15A | FuG 16 390W

X 5A | FuG 25a 60W

X 5A | Tankpumpen (fuel pumps) 100W

 

Switch at the SZKK3 controls:

+ 2x MG 131 (1000W); (each 500W, secured throu a 15A circuit breaker per MG)

+ 1x MK 108 (100W); (100W with 5A circuit breaker) or

+ 1x MG 151(/20) (500W); (500W with 15A circuit breaker)

 

By the additional "Selbstschalter" at the MGs, those are circuit breaker switches, but those can't be accessed in flight.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Kodoss
Correction of the last sentence.

[tapi]

Great! Thanks Kodoss. Description of Circuit breaker panel buttons is exactly the info I was not able to find out.

[Kodoss]

@ tapi,

 

If you take your picture of the cockpit and combine it with this picture of the main circuit plan, then you can guess it out yourself. But to decipher the correct text at the front fuse panel is insanity.

 

from L.Dv.T. 2109 K-4/Fl Teil 2

[MiloMorai]

The 1.8ata B4 + MW50 Bf109K-4 should be an awesome a/c with all the info being posted.

[tapi]

This part of fuel pipe shoud be made of glass - for visual check of fuel flow.

(Schauglass für Kraftstoffzusatzanlage)

 

[Kurfürst]

Good catch, tapi! :)

[LcSummers]

Hi,

 

is there sb who can help me please?

 

Have a couple of questions

 

1, is there any tutorial or document/vid for starting the K-4

 

2, i want to know where the K-4 types were produced?

 

a, MTT Regensburg/Neutraubling?

I know they produced the G-10 and the 262. There is a picture of a short

tail wheeled K-4 (last digits of BNr 265) wich was found at the end of

the war by American Forces at Amberg/Schafhof wich was nearly 60 Km

from Rgb.

 

b,WNF (Wien Neustadt)?

 

c, Czechoslovakia YES

 

d, Györ / Hungary ? G-10 yes but K-4?

 

e, Augsburg Germany

 

 

thanks alot

[Friedrich-4B]

K-4s were built mainly by Messerschmitt's Regensburg plant, with a very small number by Erla (from Krzysztof W Wolowski Bf 109 Late versions; Camouflage & Markings [MMP Books, White Series No. 9110], page 8 ):