SU25T SHKVAL confusion

[anjet]

Hi all!

There is some intro to the questions but you can skip it bellow the line ;)

I have a question about shkval operation on SU25T. I couldn't find it on forums or the tube...

 

I've been playing with KA50 for some time and I think I mastered the shkval, meaning, I can scan for threats, have a good hit ration with vikhr's and other fun stuff.

 

Now, I wanted he start it serious with SU25T and was so happy that at least I got this sensor covered from first flight.

 

But something is different.

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For all questions these states are true: ground mode ON, shkval ON, laser ON and cool, and lock ON ;)

1. why does the TV box snap to target? (unlike K50's shkval)

- if this is modeled what is the logic/algorithm (in layman's terms)

2. when the box is lined with the target but hasn't "snapped" any laser or TV ammo behaves like it's broken

3. it seems that when I make the first pass over a target the box snaps on target at around 12km distance, and on additional passes of the same target it snaps at 20+km?

 

It's possible I haven't tested it enough, around 30-40 missions (1st mission in su25t campaign).....

 

So why does it perform so differently from KA50 shkval!? Is it my misunderstanding, design, bug, or simply not modeled correctly.

[Snacko]

Are you adjusting the Target Box Size?

 

1) Why does the TV box snap on Target? Because it's supposed to.. so you can hit your target. IIRC the Ka50 snaps to target as well.

2) Do you get the LA (Launch Authorization)? And is the target in sight of your HUD?

 

I'm not an expert.. and the Su25 has a lot of weapons. But I believe some weapons require the target that is locked to be in a circle that is on the HUD before you can fire the weapon.

 

Download my Su25t Condensed manual. It will answer a lot of these questions I believe. For example in Step 8 deploying a Lazer Designation Missile it says:

 

The 'Shkval' targeting system will automatically snap lock on to the nearest object within the acquisition frame that has dimensions

comparable with the set target size.

 

By default, target specified size is 10 m. It is recommended to use the following target base values:

5 m - Personnel and minor structures

10 m - Cars and armored vehicles

20 m - Tactical aircraft and helicopters

30–60 m - Transport and strategic aircraft

20–60 m - Buildings

60 m - Ships

Edited December 16, 2013 by Snacko

[Boberro]

Su-25T's Shkval is arcade. There is no anything like automatic snapping. How could software from 1980-1990 know your target gate is over the target, not some rock? Even today's is not capable of full recognition of targets.

It is accepted that in LO, Su-25T can lock enemies from 15 km, often 12 km in ideal day conditions.

[anjet]

On "my" KA50 shkval doesn't snap. Maybe it snaps with a few pixel tolerance which I cant notice, but on SU25T it's snaps twice the target box size.

 

Are you sure it supposes to snap on a real shkval? I found a thread where they argue differently --> http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=92452

 

On the other hand, if I point the BS's shkval to a bush it hits a bush.

In SU25T I can't hit a bush as authorization always comes after the snap and somehow the shkval should know what to snap to!?

Manual authorization without snap makes the weapons do crazy things and never hits. Manual authorization with snap but out of range makes the weapon ride the laser (and whatever TV ammo does :) and makes the most of it's range.

The point is the weapon doesn't ride the laser unless target box snapped to target first.

 

In practical situation I would either like to be able to "snap" to target at some longer range around 20km where is my limit of identifying it (usually the one that killed me on a previous run) and shooting it with max range - maybe Kh29T could run that long...

...or, get what I have on KA50, get the missile on a pixel that is lit by the laser regardless of a "snapping" feature

.....oooor, tell me that it can't/won't be done, that it's exactly as it's implemented on a real thing or something to start enjoying the game as this is frustrating me :)

[Scarecrow]

Su-25T's Shkval is arcade. There is no anything like automatic snapping.

 

Then a campaign must be started to remove this feature from the 25T post-haste. I can't believe this over sight has been allowed to continue for this long :doh:

[Gloom Demon]

I am confused too - I started to learn the Ka-50 and Shkval operating routine is definately different from that on the Su-25T.

[esb77]

The Su-25T Shkval:

 

Is from an older survey level sim and has a less true-to-life model

 

Is not exactly the same system as in the Ka-50 and Ka-52, even though parts are shared.

 

Probably had substantially less information from the aircraft manufacturer going into the DCS modelling algorithm

 

Works better than a real Shkval system would, provided you employ it as recommended in the manual.

 

Manual targeting works just fine, you have to do the target/ground stabilization button and then slew the center of the target box to where you want the munition to impact. Then hit manual override, fly to within valid launch envelope and fire. In daylight conditions within range I think this can be done without needing to use launch override. Size the target box to be unsuitable for the target and it won't snap, but the missile will guide to the center of the box. If you really want to kill bushes, I suggest using a 20 to 60 m target box size. :)

 

I routinely killed MANPADS with manually targeted laser guided munitions before I realized that in the old tutorial videos the default target box sizing commands got changed between LOMAC and DCS world. I've also used it in moonlight/starlight conditions without a LLTV pod where there isn't enough contrast for the target box snap function to work.

It's also occasionally useful when it keeps snapping to the wrong target in a closely grouped bunch, resize to a 'wrong' size and just keep the target box centered on what you want to hit.

 

It should be noted that for manual override launch, you are responsible for ensuring that the aircraft is positioned within suitable launch parameters for the weapon. As a consequence Vikhrs, S-25Ls, and to an extent Kh-29Ls act like rockets with very limited terminal guidance. Even the Kh-25L isn't very forgiving in manual override launch mode. Provided you are successful in getting within valid launch parameters the munitions have an accuracy of something like within half a meter of the center dot indicator in the center of the targeting box. For low contrast or unusually sized targets I routinely carry laser guided munitions in preference to the TV guided ones, because the laser guided munitions will ride the beam, whereas the TV guided ones must have a valid lock or they will not guide to target.

 

It does take some practice and experimentation to learn what the limits of the munitions are in regards to launch parameters. I remember having the same, "WTF are my guided munitions doing? That's not where my laser is aimed!" kind of reaction when I first tried using manual override. I can assure you though, that unless an update broke something recently it's just a matter of needing practice without the HUD feeding you launch cues.

 

So overall the Su-25T Shkval model is a bit unrealistic, and doesn't share as much operational commonality with the Ka-50's as you might expect, but it works quite well once you've learned it's various quirks.

Edited December 17, 2013 by esb77

[anjet]

Thanks for that! It was the answer I was hopping for, something to boost my patience :)

Surviving in Su25t is a whole different thing than in Ka50, so coupled with broken weapons I was really getting frustrated.

[Boberro]

Then a campaign must be started to remove this feature from the 25T post-haste. I can't believe this over sight has been allowed to continue for this long :doh:

 

LO is arcade, er semi-arcade game. There was no info for ED regarding Shkval till they've been given the right to make Ka-50.

Making Shkval the same as in Ka-50 would eat too much resources I think. ED will do DCS:Su-25T someday, then it will be fixed.

[esb77]

Oh, anjet a few other pointers.

 

The Su-25 is going to be moving and turning a lot faster than the Ka-50, which means that a lot more momentum is transferred to the weapons it launches. While this can be used to increase range it also presents the risk that if you give momentum pointed away from the target the missile uses a lot of its maneuvering capability trying to correct for the bad aim. Firing while turning often stresses the missiles' ability to correct.

 

Weapons ranges:

Kh-29, Kh-25 up to 12 km, but 10 is more realistic. For TV versions target box sizing is very important to get a target lock, and even if you get the size right you may not be able to get a lock at max range. Usually at 80% of max range you can get a good TV lock unless in dawn/dusk/night conditions or a low contrast target.

 

Vikhr up to 10 km but usually more like 8. The Vikhr is very sensitive to being launched while the plane is maneuvering, if you treat it like a very long range unguided rocket it is great. If you treat it like a highly maneuverable missile it will miss a lot.

 

S25-L about 5 km, even less able to maneuver than the Vikhr.

 

Iron bombs and rockets, use the laser rangefinder, dive at a 20 degree or greater angle, and apply in large volumes until you've had some practice.

 

The new tutorial missions are pretty decent too. You might give them a try.

[anjet]

I don't want to sound arrogant but I lack the enthusiasm to develop finesse around something that is not really "IT" (I know it sounded arrogant). I will still play su25t, but I'll rather give more time to Ka50 if it's closer to "IT". The best scenario is that ED pops and update which says "quit nagging it's all fixed" :)

 

Did I mention that regardless of this topic and if it's su25t or ka50, this has to be one of the best game since I can remember!