Visibility of SAMs

[Ironhand]

Rich,

Looking at the S-300V video ... the thing makes a HUGE column of smoke as it climbs away ... and this persists ... this isn't modelled. And you can also see on the BUK video a white trail as it climbs ... I've never seen this.

I've made a within sim video of a Buk launch seen from 24km (15 miles)--same flight both Advanced and Basic haze. But to keep it even close to what I experience in the sim, the file size is huge: 430MB (1024x768 with some compression). I'll play around with it a bit more to see if I can get it to a more reasonable size because I'd like you to be able to view it. But the initial launch bloom and, then, the smoke trail are clearly there until the motor burns out. The smoke then slowly fades away.

 

...the movie clips i have of the sa11 launcher shows a load more dust clouds than in lockon, by far.dont know how you could miss it!

Judging from the video linked in the above post, there isn't all that much of an initial bloom. Guess I'd disagree that it'd be impossible to miss...from a distance. As Matt said, though, the degree of visibility would be influenced by a number of factors.

 

Rich

[Nasder]

But the initial launch bloom and, then, the smoke trail are clearly there until the motor burns out. The smoke then slowly fades away.

 

 

Rich

 

I feel that in lo-mac, once the source of the smoke goes away, the smoke it self vanishes within seconds. Like 1-2 seconds. It doesn't slowly fades away in lo-mac.

 

For example, if you have a plane at 8500m, this plane will cause trails, these trails are visible for, don't know... A very long while atleast, once the plane goes under 8000 meters the trail will vanish within seconds.

 

I feel that this white cloud (if you can call it that) produced by the S-300 (S-300 video from above link) that doesn't happen in lo-mac. The smoke trail is there, but not that kind of bloom of smoke once the missile ignites.

 

I haven't seen a real launch since (except for videos) I'm in no way close to an army or anything, I'm just a student. I got a german movie of HAWK and Patriot launches (100Mbyte or more) and the smoke the patriot produce should be fairly visible from a distance. The HAWK on the other hand seem to fade quite fast, or go more transparent but the trail from the hawk is clearly visible for atleast 30 or more seconds (there's no longer clip than this and the trail still is there once it cut)

 

Imho, the dust kicked up shouldn't be that big. Many of the video's I've seen have been in a desert or similar, hence sand is kicked up. In lo-mac almost everything is on grass or tarmac, this shouldn't create the same ammount of dust-cloud as sand.

 

But like I said, I'm just a student, the only information I got this based on are from movieclips and a few images.

[Whisper]

I think it's very situation dependant. Judging from 1 video won't get us a clear picture of what can happen, as for example videos from the .ru site show us the contrary : SAM doesn't seem to produce that much trail.

I guess it may depends on so many factors that it's varying a lot, weather, temperature, pressure, hygrometrical conditions, ground type, etc, etc.... You either chose to try simulating this, or chose a static type which won't suit all conditions... and which seems to not suit the taste of all here :)

[Nasder]

I don't mind it how it is now, since I seldom see the launches as they often come from my 3 o'clock or six o'clock, seldom from head on.

 

I think that a static would be best, as it is now it's rather static to one type no matter the condition. I don't mind, I can see the trails of some.

 

But I am never against improvements :)

[Ironhand]

Attention: Kula66

 

Rich,

...and you can also see on the BUK video a white trail as it climbs ... I've never seen this.

Got the file size to a more "reasonable" 82MB (down from the original's 1.33GB). Don't know what sort of Net connection you have but it's the best I can do and still have some semblance of what I'm seeing. The video compression actually reduces the persistence of the initial bloom. So when I fly, I actually see more. FWIW, seen from the range in the video, the smoke trail is modeled as being about as wide as a runway.

 

Sim Buk Launch Video

 

The video is 51 seconds long, 1024x768, both with and without advanced haze. Subject: Buk launch. Range 24km (15 miles). In an effort to reduce file size, there is no sound.

 

Rich

[Nasder]

Very nice video, the smoke is clearly visible in the video as well. And with higher-res and without the compression it's even more visible.

 

ALl though the initial launch wasn't that big. It's not noticeable, but at the same time, I don't think it is. It looks big and mighty upclose with a camera, but far away in an airplane, I don't think you see that much of it. At night you might see the light-source from the missile burn though.

[Ironhand]

...ALl though the initial launch wasn't that big. It's not noticeable, ...(snipped)

Interesting you should say that it's "not noticable". It's usually the initial "flash" of the bright white launch bloom that captures my attention...assuming, of course, that I'm looking in it's general direction.

 

Rich

[Kula66]

Cheers Rich, I'll take a look.

[Roman G]

Just as a curiosity, I "served" in Czechoslovak army a few miles from the Russian base in Czechoslovakia. While I was priviledged to shoot only about five hundred AK and machinegun bullets in about two years (FYI, without ear-plugs the mashinegun shots were literally causing pain to my ears) and the service was mostly about clean boots and clean toilets, the Russians were pounding tank shells and heavy machine-gun rounds all day and night, all week long. With each tank shell the windows and doors in our sleeping barracks were shaking heavily, but after a few days I got used to it and regardless of noice I was sleeping like a baby.

 

Back to original topic a bit, from my personal experiance - in night the tank fire flash is visible from about five miles about the same as storm-lighting. I can imagine that a missile must be visible easily from many more miles.

 

Our unit was supposed to go to Kazakhstan to test how good we are at shooting Scud missiles. The "trip" was cancelled because of lack of funds. I actually was sad about that - even if the trip involved to spend about three weeks in a dirty train and lot of funny duties in the desert. But from the saying of "older camrades" I know that firing a Scud missile turns a night into a day (well, at least that's what they were saying :) )

[Nasder]

Interesting you should say that it's "not noticable". It's usually the initial "flash" of the bright white launch bloom that captures my attention...assuming, of course, that I'm looking in it's general direction.

 

Rich

 

Yeah, if you know where to look you'll spot the launch. I didn't spot it in the video though, I saw the white smoke-trail that gave away the location rather than the initial flash. But if I knew where I would look, I would probably see the flash aswell.

 

I'll play around some in game and try to look into this for fun. What launches are visible and during what time is it most visible.

 

EDIT - After watching the video a second and third time, knowing where to look. I take back my statement. The flash is very very visible. Don't know why I missed that.

[Ironhand]

...After watching the video a second and third time, knowing where to look. I take back my statement. The flash is very very visible. Don't know why I missed that.

Because you were looking for it. :) No. I mean that sincerely. The trick to seeing something like that--whether it be a launch "flash" or the dot of an a/c in the sky, etc--is to use what I think of as a "soft" focus. Look at the view in general instead of at places in particular. It'll almost feel like you have "unfocused" your eyes. This is as true on a computer monitor as it is in real life. You are looking for an anomaly, not a specific thing. Just something that wasn't there and now is. That's why I put up a video instead of screen shots. There's a time element involved in perception.

 

Rich

[Kula66]

I know that firing a Scud missile turns a night into a day (well, at least that's what they were saying :) )

 

Cheers Roman ... at night I would expect a big flash from an S-300 that is easily visible for miles - but never spotten anything.

 

Rich,

The missile launches are just visible, but as you say that is from 20+km ... the various videos of shots of SAM launches are often shot from close by, so perhaps LO has got it right. I just need to look harder!

[Ironhand]

Cheers Roman ... at night I would expect a big flash from an S-300 that is easily visible for miles - but never spotten anything.

That's because at night all you get to see is the initial launch bloom (white) and then nothing. The contrail is not lit and hot exhaust gasses are not modeled as glowing. So there's a 1-2 second bloom and then you have no idea where the missile is headed. But, then again, night lighting effects have never been a strong point for this sim. Even complete cities look rather dark and low key at night.

 

Rich

[Brit_Radar_Dude]

But, then again, night lighting effects have never been a strong point for this sim. Even complete cities look rather dark and low key at night.

I always just assumed because there was a war/conflict that the power was out in the towns and cities and that the dim lights we could see were candles/gas lamps.