Clunk1001

I posted a tacview of 4xF14s loosing 12 AIM54s at a single Mig21 and the Mig21 evaded them all with ease. That's my evidence. But I'm happy to be corrected - I'll read all the evidence you have for how successful Mig21s (or indeed any manned aggressor) were at evading the AIM54. I don't believe there is Data! The US never used them, and although Iran claim to have downed a dozen Mig21s with the Phoenix, it's not likely anyone will see that data. If you read my posts properly, I might not have to repeat myself, there is no data for how easy it is for a Mig21 to evade an AIM54. But I'm pretty confident that if you put all the numbers together, and it comes up with a tacview like I posted (1 Mig evading 12 AIM54s) it's clear something's not right. Sometimes you need more than just numbers. Sometimes the numbers don't exist. At that point you need to look for other sources.

So recreating a ww1 aircraft where everyone who flew it, serviced it, or supported it is dead, would be impossible then? That’s a shame, I recon there would be a market for them. I presume you drive a car? Would you be able to comment on the accuracy of a Bentley simulator? Yes, because you know what a car can and cannot do in terms of the laws of physics and your experience in cars. likewise a pilot of say 25 years, with a fairly solid understanding of aerodynamics could quiet legitimately say ‘something doesn’t feel right’. in fact, I’ve seen tech. logs with just that in … “left throttle doesn’t feel right”. It’s not just that this doesn’t feel right - it’s demonstrably not right.

I'm just going to reference the attached tacview - there are four F14s vs 1 Mig21, 50 miles, 330000ft The Mig21 dodges all 12 Aim54Mk60s with ease, and is eventually taken out with a sidewinder. I don't need to hunt around for illusive sources of data from NATOPS to NASA to know that this is just bo||ocks. Well, that's just wonderful. It's pretty useless in the game, but as long as Kinematically it is close to known data points that's fine. It's as if nobody really wants to play DCS, and it's all just about the closeness to datapoints. That's not why I bought the F14. Maybe you're different? If you enjoy a dogfight with your buddies to then only discuss the closeness to known data points afterwards then I'm genuinely happy for you if that's your thing, I personally like to shoot Migs down, but everyone likes different things I suppose I do want accuracy, I do want a challenge, but not at the expense of enjoying an arial engagement or two in DCS. Benny-hill-theme.mp3 Pheinix is just Phucked.acmi

You are right! Hughes?

All good points. it’s a moving target, but what is the ‘target’? Is it to “create an effective weapon in DCS - as real as we can effectively make it”. Or “create a 100% accurately modelled weapon which is ineffective due to DCS limitations”. There has to be a balance - personally I want to see an effective weapon that behaves as one might expect (occasionally hitting a bandit). Rather than a missile with all the right numbers but doesn’t hit a thing in the DCS simulation.

Show me the source to prove that the Aim54 is so bad at hitting bandits. show me the source to prove the missile is so easy to avoid. I’ll wait….. It was never deployed by the US, so, I can’t show you a source that says the Aim54 should be better at hitting bandits. Without any factual evidence, one has to make an educated guess, when the Aim54 reaches a bandit does it (a) fizzle out and die and lose guidance at the slightest jink, or (b) like other missiles would do, make a fair effort to hit the target or detonate in proximity. based on other missiles and technology designed to do the same thing, I’d go with (b). I seem to be in the minority here though. But I ‘feel’ that’s what Raytheon had in mind when they built it, and I ‘feel’ that’s why the US strapped it to the f14. I guess you could say that what we have is 100% realistic - the US had 0 bandits killed with Aim54, and that’s replicated in DCS pretty accurately now.

I agree. if the Phoenix had so many limitations it wouldn’t have been strapped to an aircraft in the first place - and all you get here is “you fired from 31 miles - everyone knows it won’t work at 31 miles”, “you fired at 49 miles - everyone knows it won’t work at 49 miles”, “you fired at 20 miles, that will never work”, “you fired at m0.92 - this graph shows it won’t work at m0.92”, “you fired at an aircraft - everyone knows you can’t fire them at aircraft”, “you used the wrong version”, “you need to fire them above 48000ft”. “Higher”, “faster”, “the bandit farted … that throws off the aim54 - look at this NASA study on flatulence induced guidance mishaps” sounds to me more like unrealistic limitations being applied to the missile to make the PvP experience more “playable”. And if it’s not usable for AI and single player - blame it on the user.

I don’t think it is. The simulation has to work. The simulation has to have some resemblance to real life. Without playability you just have a pile of code and a pile of decals, but nothing to play.

I have to disagree with this. Your customers have purchased an add-on to DCS and it is not unreasonable to expect that product to work within the DCS environment. As soon as you accept money from sale of a DCS add-on then delivering a DCS add-on is your job. not just morally, but legally. Whilst I appreciate difficulties with ED and the DCS environment, this does not detract from the obligation you have to provide something which works in DCS (and that includes AI missions, campaigns, and PvP) I don’t agree with this “Accuracy over playability” attitude. Edit: Sorry, this seems aggressive, I’m quiet passionate about it. I think the work to-date on this module is phenomenal.

The Phoenix is totally phucked, phrankly. some people here just wave an ‘accurate Aim54 flight model’ flag, then posts some curve diagrams published by NASA, and ignore the obvious issues. This is a DCS add-on. If the Phoenix doesn’t work it DCS, then the Phoenix doesn’t work phull stop.

It's okay everyone - I've worked out what seems to be a consistent method to engage a Mig23 with the Pheonix. Sarcasm aside, no actually, wait, I have nothing left but sarcasm at the moment on this subject. Come on, lets have some more posts about 'accuracy' and 'realism', we've only got 25 pages so far..... Friends.acmi

Here's a different example. The bandits don't even react to the missiles at all, and the AIM54s just sail right past them. (I'm deliberately not evading or touching the controls having fired the missiles in TWS, just to demonstrate the issue - so no tips on missile evasion/tactics thankyou ). AIM54 Not Tracking.acmi

It's been about a month since I played DCS. I jumped into the Tomcat yesterday, and literally couldn't hit anything with the AIM54. A month ago I was probably 90% hit rate and would be flying large campaigns against multiple groups of Mig29 Ace AI quite happily (possibly a little too easy - but now it's gone the other way). Here is a Tacview of what I'm generally experiencing now. 1 vs 6 Rookie Mig23. 30000ft, 30 miles, all six AIM54 miss. (A month ago, I wouldn't have even played this scenario because it would be too easy, even with just 4 AIM54). I have many simple training missions like this one, but even the simplest of mission now seems full of near invincible AI against the AIM54. I can't go anywhere near my Liberation campaigns in a Tomcat. Someone mentioned about 're-learning' to use the Pheonix. Well, yes, I've found that I can use it like a Sparrow (7 miles wvr) very effectively. But I don't seem to be able to use the Pheonix for what it was designed for, which means I can't use the Tomcat for what it was designed for. The Pheonix is an integral part of the Tomcat, if the Pheonix doesn't work the Tomcat doesn't work. My questions are: - In the holy quest for the grail of AIM54 flight modelling accuracy, is this just how the missile is going to be now? It seems to me that the more work on AIM54 'accuracy' which is done the less 'realistic' the scenarios become in DCS. - are there any tips for the current state of the missile? (please don't say higher and faster - I saw those successful Tacviews posted earlier, and the missile was designed to work below 48,000ft) Thanks Tacview-20221018-114227-DCS-test3.zip.acmi

Usually always a super carrier. Was able to replicate using the Theodore Roosevelt - it seemed to be linked to late activation aircraft, I had a late CAP activating at about 30 mins in - 4 x F14 starting InFlight, I could get it to crash consistently after 31 mins, but if I removed the late activating flight it worked okay. (that was a Liberation generated mission - so couldn't be specific on the actual triggers). But it does feel like some DCS trigger is causing a conflict resulting in a freeze (hardware is all fine and then complete freeze). I'll do some more testing.

The F14 wingmen continue to engage any contact within about 50 miles, which pretty much takes them from bandit to bandit right across the Map, until they are eventually taken out by SAMs. On a large Liberation Campaign where the map is full of bandits, as soon as you select engage - you simply won't see your wingmen again, F10 Map reveals they're perhaps 100 miles away still heading in the wrong direction, probably toward a heavily defended airfield. I wonder if this may actually be more of an F14 issue, due to their capability to engage >50 miles?

Is it just FlankerKiller and me who play with AI wingmen? - rejoin formation - two: engaging bandit - go finger four - three: engaging bandit - rejoin formation! - RTB! - three: engaged defensive - rejoin formation!!! - two: ejecting - rejoin formation!!!! - three: ejecting why is there not any disengage logic or comm. option?

No. I get a freeze also (usually when returning to carrier). Im able to replicate consistently with f14 but not f18. it’s very frustrating, and now after a successful mission (dcs liberation campaign) I tend to end the game before even returning to carrier as there’s a 1 in 4 chance it’ll freeze on the return journey.

No, sorry, it really doesn’t. Even level d simulators ($10m+) don’t really do it all that well. I’ve spent weeks at a time in them for professional training, and even they don’t replicate the ‘seat of the pants’ you describe. it’s like the difference between listening to music on a cassette tape, vs being front row at the concert. it’s like the difference between a real naked woman standing in front of you, vs looking at a picture in a magazine. it’s like saying Call Of Duty isn’t ‘quite’ the same being there - but Logitech’s real-metal gun controller attachment does replicate the experience. my point is, some things just cannot be replicated by hardware/software. And devs need to compensate for that a little. And perhaps, even compromise their desire for aircraft ‘accuracy’ in favour of delivering ‘realism’. id agree with the OP that the f14 in dcs is probably over sensitive at low speed, it feels too twitchy (a curve on the joystick axis might deliver a more realistic response here). But for me at least, I enjoy the challenge.

That’s a bit like putting a leather flying hat and goggles on and thinking it makes dcs more ‘realistic’. there’s always going to be a vast chasm between simulation and real life flying. And it’s important to accept that. On the PC it’s about balancing playability with perceived ‘realism’. Which I think heatblur are doing relatively well.

The f14 in dcs is hyper sensitive to the tiniest of inputs. Very noticeable in refuelling. However, rl aircraft are too, can’t speak for the f14 itself. but precision flying (e.g. ILS to minimums on a dead calm night) would involve the minutest of control inputs that would be almost invisible to an observer (<1mm movement of the stick). As already mentioned above, much of it in rl is done with feel, especially where trim is concerned - in games you tend to have to trim by ‘observing’ undesired pitch using visual cues, irl it’s nothing like that at all and it’s done mainly by feel - you’re trimming undesired ‘force’ out of the stick. You just can’t replicate the same thing in a pc sim. I suspect the real aircraft is less ‘twitchy’ at these lower speeds. However, I think the balance heatblur have got here is good. It takes many many hours practice to get it right. If you haven’t done it for a while it will go horribly wrong. And some people simply won’t be able to do it. This is so similar to many aspects of rl flying. [edit: it’s why I think heatblurs f14 is one of the best flight sim experiences I’ve seen, in 30 years of flying, and 30 years of flight sims] There are a few good tutorials on YouTube - sweep the wings, focus on a point on the tanker rather than chasing the basket. my main tip would be get your speed absolutely nailed first, practice just sitting behind the basket for a while with minimal throttle corrections.

Already tested the F18, and that works, only repeatable in the F14 (have just posted same on the Heatblur section). I am so happy others can replicate this ! And I wish I'd asked you guys before I spent £120 yesterday upgrading from 32GB to 64GB Ram to make no difference (other than to my wallet). I thought the Liberation Triggers might be the cause - but then why only the F14? (unless it's checking for that). Edit: Have removed all triggers and trigger zones from the mission. Still crashes in exactly the same way.

I've posted this a few places on the forum (apologies for the repetition), but I felt this should go in the F14 section as the issue is reproducible for me only with the F14. I've been experiencing intermittent random freezes with DCS, usually about 30+ minutes into a game. I fly single-player Liberation campaigns, in the F-14. I spent the full day yesterday trying to find the cause, I have been unsuccessful, but I can replicate it 100% of the time now with a Caucasus mission generated from DCS Liberation. To replicate, I use the attached .miz, sit on the carrier for 32 minutes (i.e. fast forward to 32 minutes into mission, any time after 32 mins will trigger the crash), then launch, gear up, press F3 (flypast view) and the game immediately freezes in cockpit (doesn't reach external view). End Task is the only option at this point. I've tried this now 30-40 times with various settings on/off - I've tried everything I could find from all the forums, not just in-game settings and reinstalls etc, but down to turning hyperthreading off, ethernet off, usb unplugged etc). Nothing makes any difference, it always freezes at exactly the same point. Even with graphics on lowest possible settings. Interestingly, this does not happen with the F18 (if I edit the mission and put myself in the F18, it works fine). Hence why I'm putting it in this forum (I'm not saying this is a Heatblur issue - it could be DCS, or Liberation, or my PC). I'm just saying that it's an issue I can replicate consistently in the F14. Also, there seem to be quiet a few people (mainly with Nvidia cards) suffering 'random' freezes. And so I though it might be useful to share a freeze that is not random, and is 100% replicable (at least on my system). The DCS Log file stops just before the freeze, so doesn't record any crash info. But I've attached it, just in case there's a clue in there which I haven't spotted. The .miz file was generated by Liberation (not sure if it's playable without Liberation installed though). I've attached it anyway. In terms of system, I'm running an i7-10700, GTX3070, 64GB RAM and it isn't being challenged. I've attached a screenshot of task manager, for this last test I'd reduced all graphics to low, and even reduced game resolution too, and you can see on the GPU the point where I launch off the carrier, and the point where the game just freezes. I don't think this is a memory/cpu/disk bottleneck (a hardware issue would generally manifest itself intermittently and would not be reproducible at an exact point like this is). So, I'm asking, no I'm pleading, for some help/advise here. In order to play Liberation missions which last longer than 30 minutes I need to fly the F18. It turns out I hate the F18 , and I only want to fly the F14. Please help edit: I believe the .miz can be run without liberation installed as long as you have the following folder created C:\dcs_liberation.5.2.0\dcs_liberation edit2 : The issue seems to be late activation. I've a flight of 4 F-14s which activate at about 28 mins. Removing this one flight prevents the game crash. Though there are many late activation groups being activated by triggers, I'm not sure why this flight of F14s would cause the crash. However, I removed the late activation F-14s and I've been able to complete the mission with no freeze. Although this does sound like a DCS issue....it only happens when flying the F14. Thanks dcs.log liberation_nextturn.miz

+1 (And sorry I've also posted this on another thread - but I'm lost for solutions here). Mine tends to freeze between 30-60 mins (usually when returning to carrier). I now have a mission file (Generated from Liberation) where I can consistently replicate this (with the F-14, both A and B). Its a runway Launch from Super Carrier, I sit on the carrier till 32 mins into mission (speed up time to 32 mins), then launch, then gear up, then press F3 (fly past view). Instantly freezes requiring End Task. But it works fine when flying the F18 !! i7-10700, GTX3070, 64GB RAM Tried Reinstall. and all the tips and tricks I could find on here. Anyone any suggestions? liberation_nextturn.miz dcs.log

+1 Mine tends to freeze between 30-60 mins (usually when returning to carrier). I now have a mission file (Generated from Liberation) where I can consistently replicate this (with the F-14, both A and B). Its a runway Launch from Super Carrier, I sit on the carrier till 32 mins into mission (speed up time to 32 mins), then launch, then gear up, then press F3 (fly past view). Instantly freezes requiring End Task. But it works fine when flying the F18 !! i7-10700, GTX3070, 64GB RAM Tried Reinstall. and all the tips and tricks I could find on here. Anyone any suggestions? dcs.log liberation_nextturn.miz

Resurrecting this thread after a full day trying to get to the bottom of a DCS freeze issue which has been plaguing me for months. I've been having issues with DCS after about 30+ minutes into a mission, DCS freezes (not responding). No Log file is generated with crash details (but have attached log up to about a second before freeze). Have to end task (windows is fine, just DCS). I play liberation campaigns (single-player), and it usually crashes when I'm returning to the carrier after a mission, so I rarely get to finish a mission now, which defeats the purpose of a campaign (and the game, for me). Often the game freezes when nothing is happening (70 miles out returning to the carrier with the autopilot on) It seems time related, rather than activity related. Anyway, I have a single-player mission (created in Liberation, Caucasus, with about 30 aircraft in the air), nothing too strenuous for even a mid-range PC. But this mission allows me to replicate the freeze 100% of the time. I leave the F-14 on the carrier, fast-forward time to about 32 minutes in (<30 mins is fine, >30 mins it will crash), then launch and after gear-up I press F3 (flypast), and the game freezes immediately in the cockpit (doesn't switch to external view). I have repeated this maybe 20 times, monitoring CPU, Disk Usage, GPU etc. And there is nothing out of the ordinary happening. I'm running on an i7-10700, GTX3070, 32GB RAM. FPS is happy at 60+, then instant freeze, CPU, GPU then drop to 0. I've spent the day going through topics on this, and tried every suggestion I could find, multithreading on/off, vsync on/off, graphics set to Low, graphics set to Max, nothing makes a difference, complete uninstall (of everything), fresh install, switch off network, switch off antivirus, usb power, trackIR disconnect. Game crashes under exactly the same conditions every time. But I finally found a way to make it not crash, and that was to do the same in the F18. If I do the same mission in the F18 I have no issues, but in the F-14 (both the A and B) it crashes every time. Most topics I read are often dealing with framerates, but my framerates are fine, right up to the freeze (so it isn't CPU, GPU, or disk labouring under the strains of DCS and then breaking). I'm not expecting anyone to diagnose this issue, but if anyone has come across similar and has a solution, or a suggestion, I'd appreciate any info. I'm going to shift from 32GB to 64GB RAM later today, as I've tried everything else I can think of. (Edit: 64GB RAM made no difference, crashes in exactly the same place) dcs.log