Tailspin45

In campaign mission three a crosswind is added. But text and voice don't say whether it's from left or right, and there's no windsock or wind-T. Ditto mission 5, the crosswind landing. The wing down image, however, does suggest it's from the left

Not a bug per se, but it would be great to have an abbreviated checklist on kneeboard, along with a frequency card.

Yup, I fly RL formation with nose down trim too, for better feel, and tell students to fly with their fingertips not their arm. Small muscles are more precise than big ones. Found a simple way to mount stick using plastic pipe if anyone else is interested. Details at

Same set-up here on curve, but 3 deadzone. Shithot flyin', lad! You set the bar pretty high! ...Break... Have you found a solution to the center notchiness of TM HOTAS, or do you fly a different stick? I've tried it with the spring in and put (several times) and just can't get a smooth feel. (Or should this be either a different thread or personal message?)

Nicely done! Looked very smooth. Curious about your rudder pedals, and axis assignments. Could you share the details?

RL P-51 vidoes http://wn.com/Mustang_P51

Flames in flight, not start? I'm willing to be convinced, but I've been to Reno several times, have hangared with Mustangs, and flown in them and never saw anything coming out of the exhaust except at start and a constant blue flame at night. The twinkling thing I've never seen except in the first few revolutions of the prop on start. Not trying to be argumentative or a know it all, just want this wonderful sim to be the best possible and hope my opinion will cause devs to take a closer look at the issue. Check this video a guy took of a form flight with Chuck Hall and Bill Anders, for example:

I've never ever seen flames coming from the exhaust of a '51, except at start. You might at night, and you might in a garage, but honestly, how often do we fly indoors?

/world/mods/aircrafts should be aircraft /world/mods/aircrafts/P51/traning should be training

Acknowledgement in the front that much of the manual comes directly from the original P-51 Flight Training Manual would be appropriate and add credibility.

The exhaust twinkles, probably as a result of an attempt to show smoke puffs. That make sense just at start, but thereafter...?

No, it's not a tailwheel issue. I mentioned that in paragraph a) but see now—because of your comment—that it has been reported elsewhere as well and apparently submitted as a bug. Thats great. However in c) I asked, "Why would pitch trim affect ground handling?", describing what I observed in b). If you change the trim in a real aircraft it will have nothing to do with the ground handling of the bird assuming you keep the stick back and the three tires firmly on the ground. Yes, it might make the tail come off a different airspeed if you let it, and yes it may cause you to position the elevator differently to keep the tail on the ground and thus change the amount of drag created, but those would be minor effects and unnoticeable. Although I have absolutely no idea how ED models the ground handling, my experience with it suggests that somehow the trim setting affects the tailwheel's ground friction which affects the yaw stability. But that's simply a wild guess based on how it feels and may have nothing to do with how the code really works. I'd love to understand what, exactly, TO Assit does beneath the surface. Regardless of my impression and other's ability to successfully get the aircraft in the air, it's safe to say that if a real P-51 behaved like this one does now it would never have become the beloved fighter that it was and is. Rhetorically, which is better: A 100% faithful model or a model that feels like the real thing? I'm sure the question has been debated amongst sim developers since the days of subLOGIC and Bruce Artwick's crude masterpieces. Budd Davisson wrote back in 1990 With a lot of time in the SNJ (AT-6) and a lot of dual given in it, if what Davisson writes is true, then my observations are actually conservative and the model needs a lot more tweaking that I've suggested. In fact, my first takeoff in the DCS '51 did end up as a spectcular fire on the edge of the runway! Again, to be clear, I am not criticizing the beautiful work, the artistry even, that has gone into building this wonderful simulation. I've been a fan of DCS since Warthog beta days, and have nothing but selfish self-interest in mind when I hope that the ground handling can be tweaked because it will make flying this sim more fun. If that makes more fun for everyone, then I'm doubly grateful for the devs fine work.

Well, I've spent the last several hours flying takeoffs with TO Assist off, and I'm still not sure what the problem is—but I'm more convinced than ever that there is one. The problem could be 1) me, it could be 2) my set up, or it could be 3) the flight (ground handling) model. 1) I don't think it's me because a) I'm sober despite the holiday, and b) I have adequate RL experience in biplanes/SNJ/C-45 to understand takeoff handling considerations. That said, the lack of proprioceptive (seat of the pants) and kinesthetic (force feed back) queues certainly works against us all. But so far no one has found an affordable solution to that for home use. 2) I don't think it's my TM HOTAS or P-51 Options axis set-up because I've tweaked them several times to get a good 'feel' in other flight regimes. And from just airborne to 30,000 feet the aircraft is lovely. 3) So that leaves the ground handling model. Here's what I've discovered, but as a friend used to say, "I don't understand everything I know." And please keep in mind none of this is a complaint, just a effort to make this wonderful aircraft turn out as realistic as possible when released. Using the Instant Action | Takeoff at Batumi setup (modified from 7PM to 4PM and with two 75 gal combat tanks added) I found the following: a) The tailwheel exhibits a very strange behavior, visible in the attached replay--it apparently unlocks itself and starts to rotate*. On brake release at 30"MP, and 4 units nose heavy trim per the POH, the bird tried to head off into the weeds at low speed and was unrecoverable. After the pirouette, the tailwheel is backwards, so on next attempt, now with 4 degrees tail heavy trim, it rotates to the proper caster position with a little heading bobble as a result, but she is controllable. b) Even knowing about the tailwheel weirdness, with 4 to 6 units of right rudder trim and with 4 units of nose heavy trim (combat tanks and fuselage fuel per POH), or with 2 units just to see if it's better, or with default zero units pitch trim, the aircraft is very unstable almost to the point of uncontrollable in the yaw axis. And that's with the stick back to keep the tail firmly on the ground and no gyroscopic effects because the pitch hasn't changed. Yes, with repeated practice you can control it, but I just can't believe that a real Mustang handles like that. c) With 4 degrees of tail heavy trim the aircraft is much better behaved on the ground. Why would pitch trim affect ground handling? That suggests to me that we have a problem in the model. So with 16 recorded tracks and at least an equal number that were too embarrassing to save, I believe that with TO Assist at 100% the aircraft flies more like I would expect than it does without it. But I could be wrong and have been before. I'm always willing to change my views. Happy to share other tracks or record more if it would be useful. *Yes, i checked to make sure there were no other controls or keys also bound to the rudder. TO no assist 4 NH 4TH.trk

No worries, I understood that. Will do. As a kid back in the late '50s I somehow managed to find myself in the control tower at La Aurora Airport in Guatemala City. In those days the Guatemalan Ar Force flew AT-6s and P-51s, and thus I was privileged to watch a new Mustang pilot make his first takeoff. It was thrilling for the reasons we're discussing here. The tower was on the left side of the runway, and it turned out, directly in the path of the hell bent for leather Mustang and it's new rider. The takeoff started okay, but as the tail came up the beast galloped toward the runway edge. As it came off the ground it had the tower cab boresighted, and the controllers decided they'd seen enough. One started to climb down the ladder that led to the floor below. The other impatiently took one look over his shoulder and dove head first through the opening, breaking his collar bone on arrival. Ignorance being bliss, I stood there in awe, and thoroughly enjoyed watching and hearing the '51 go by at eye level within a wingspan of the cab. On the backside of the tower! My brother and I still talk about our days playing ground hog at that airport. We found our way through the runway drainage system and would push the grates aside and pop our heads out at runway edge to watch the DC-3s and DC-6s arrive and depart. I'll do the same test. I wonder if we had the elevator trim set the same? I'll double check and report back here.

Definitely, but watch any video of RL '51 taking off and you'll see the tailwheel come off the ground long, long before the mains. In SNJ the technique is to let the tailwheel come off, which happens around 40-50mph, and hold a tail low attitude until the aircraft becomes airborne. In any event, you make a good point. The vertical stabilizer modeling may be the issue. The POH says, "If you horse the tail off the ground too quickly with the elevators, better be ready to use right rudder promptly." My experience with TO Assist off is no amount of right rudder will control the nose.

I stand corrected, this is modeled accuately. A friend, the owner/pilot of Six Shooter, Chuck Hall, replied to my query on this issue:

Oh, I have tweaked my rudder axis, I meant further tweak. Which I've now done, and I still believe that with TO Assist off the bird has way too much gyroscopic effect. The torque and P-factor seems to be about right, even if the trottle is smartly advanced to a full 61 inches, it's controllable. But when the tail comes off the ground below abut 100 mph, however gently, all hell breaks loose and I, at least, don't think it should behave like that.

Not sure I follow what you mean, Wild Bill. Throttle sets manifold pressure and prop sets RPM. (Below certain MP settings RPM follows throttle setting because it's off the governor.) When you pull back the prop it reduces RPM and should increases MP, at least in my experience. That's why departure power reductions are always done throttle first, then prop--so you don't exceed the MP redline. Likewise, power increases lead with RPM and then you set the MP. In this bird, a change in RPM doesn't seem to have any effect on MP.

When RPM is reduced there is no increase in MP. Couldn't find an indication anywhere here that this is a feature or a bug so I thought I'd report it.

Same problem, same solution. I'm suspicious ESET anti-virus prohibited install of some files, but can't prove it. I reinstalled with ESET off, and throttle problem was fixed. However, many (but not all) keyboard keys such as gun trigger, gear etc are still not recognized. FIXED. Deleted user/saved games/DCS folder and it solved a whole bunch of issues.

Flew an SNJ (AT-6) with P-51 tailwheel installed (as many do) for about 10 years, and what the sim vids here show is not the way it should work. With TO Assist at 100% the DCS '51 almost feels right, but with it off its pretty much unmanageable. Suspect this tailswheel thing is, or is related to, the problem. Otherwise, it's a terrific sim. That lovely music the V-12 makes isn't near loud enough, though. :smilewink:.

I read that RL folks were involved, and I'm no expert on '51 with only three flights (as a passenger) in one. But I do have a lot of time in an SNJ/AT-6 and C-45H, and have given a lot of dual in both. So I think I have some basis for my opinion that it doesn't feel quite right--twitchy and ill-behaved as I wrote--with the TO Assist off. My impression is that the gyro effect of the prop is overdone without the assist, if that helps. Don't get me wrong, I love what they've created. I've enjoyed hours and hours of fun in the A-10 and look forward to the same in the P-51.

Installed throttle and joystick LAUs last night (I have a CH pedals). Very helpful, as is the PDF. Frustratingly, many of the assignments (e.g. Engine RPM) didn't even appear in the list until I added yours. No idea why, but it was very confusing until you solved the problem for me. Thanks you!

But closer to real with TO Assist at 100%. That said, I've only have a few minutes in this '51 so far and suspect my axis settings need more curve. The difference, I guess is the real one feels like a .45--a solid hunk of metal not to be taken lightly, but honest--so far this sim feels twitchy and ill-behaved on takeoff and landing, but with TO Assist it feels about right. I love a challenge as much as the next guy, but this bird is more than a handful.

Note that just because the stick is back it doesn't mean your tailwheel is locked. There's a pin that drops down to lock the steering and tailwheel strut together. If the tailwheel isn't straight the pin won't drop in the hole until it is. Devs did a nice job of modeling this and the complicated geometry back there.