DefaultFace

Just checked it out, very nice! Not sure if I missed that before or if it was recently implemented but definitely looks cool.

Hi Metalfan, 1. The trim on the 109 works differently than trim on most aircraft. Adjusting the trim wheel in the 109 changes the angle of the entire horizontal stabilizer and not necessarily the elevator (not visually modeled afaik). I'm not 100% sure what other aircraft you refer to however by my understanding the convential trim setup on an aircraft is accomplished using Trim tabs (see google for pictures if you like). Trim tabs work more or less the same way as control surfaces do and influence how much lift a control surface generates to more or less hold it in a certain position. Since the control surfaces are linked to the stick this would cause the stick to move in the cockpit. 2. I've never flown the 109 for real so I can't say anything with 100% accuracy here but to my understanding ED creates their FM's only with as much 'scientific data' as they can get their hands on. Ie flight test and wind tunnel data of real a/c and scale models, all of it from multiple sources usually. I'm not sure how the IL-2 devs create their FM's and I'm also not saying that ED is always perfect and never makes mistakes but how an aircraft behaves in another sim isn't necessarily a great guideline for what is realistic. What I can tell you is that from a virtual pilots point of view I mostly fly with full nose down trim or a little less and don't have many issues with the aircraft pitching up. With this method you actually need a little bit of pull to get airborne on takeoff.

Heh? bots...? The only time the bots come into play on ACG is when someone is alone on the server. IMO that's how it should be on a dogfight server like ACG. As for the labels bug on =BS= it's random and is fixed with a reconnect. Not that everyone reconnects when they have it but hey. I also agree that the impostors are a much better solution. I find on BS the labels make it impossible to see things beyond 8km and far too easy to see things in close.

Before the whole slats fiasco I used to use them alot more than I do now. In general yes a little bit of flaps (5° or so) helps the turn but bleeds speed alot as well. Especially when you get slow.

I think it's not a matter of Important vs not important and more a question of is it more Important than something else. For me I personally think it's nice to have, and while I would'nt want minecraft tanks, I place more importance on the map and damage model and all the other dozens of features we're getting. That being said, high detail is how ED does it's work and I don't see that changing any time soon.

People usually only join if they see people are on a server. Sometimes if you 'loiter' ie just sit in spectators or go hit ground targets at the right times of day you can get a bit of action going. After about 6-7 PM GMT+1 people might start to show up if there's a populated server, 9-11 are the 'main' times though. However even then you get maybe 10v10 if you're lucky. Hopefully Normandy and the Spitfire will draw in some more players.

Somehow I put myself in this situation often.....

After a bit more flying I also noticed that the behaviour in very slow turns (270-300 km/h) does seem a little different. Much harder to keep coordinated and requires almost full right aileron. Before you could pull a bit of flaps and as long as you were gentle she would still out turn a mustang and fly relatively controllably. Much harder now. Edit: in 1.5 release MP flying.

Hi 5tuka, nice mod. I noticed that during engine off flight in the 2.0 version the whistling noise is still played from outside. Not sure if this is on purpose or not but by my logic it seems like a bug.

As expected after the latest 2.0 patch it now works in both 1.5 release and 2.0 alpha.

Sorry. By release I meant 1.5.x release. In the 2.0 Alpha it isn't fixed (purely because we haven't had a patch in 3 weeks). Sorry for the confusion :P

Uhhh.... Didn't it already make the last patch? AFAIK release is fixed, according to the patch notes and my testing it feels fixed......

2.0 hasn't had an update since the one that 'broke' the slats. I'd assume since it's already fixed in release that it will be fixed in the next 2.0 patch whenever that might be.

Nope. She definitely turns like she used to again. Seems like the roll got slower again and the energy bleed increased as well. Pretty much feels the same as how it was before.

The trim function you're mentioning is only really useful in cruise. Sure it's not realistic but if someone wants to joyride in the 109 with a bit more ease then whatever, to each their own. In single player it doesn't matter and seeing as it doesn't affect combat it's not really that big of a deal. I wouldn't use it but hey that's just me. The speeds in combat change so fast that trimming makes no sense. You'd be more accurate and faster just doing it yourself. The built in auto rudder in the options is more of a cheat than this is...

Talisman the target script you're talking about only changes the inputs given to dcs. It can't overcome limitations models by ed ie stick forces. I think those guys are just using it so that they don't need a stick extension to hold aileron inputs on a joy flight. Other than that I don't think anyone uses it.

I'm sorry if what I said came across as "lol who cares lets just play warthunder" but that was certainly not the point I was trying to convey. DCS is excellent because of its depth and accuracy, as I said (multiple times) these things should be tuned and worked at as best as possible/achievable in a manner that delivers realistic results. All I was saying is that in the meantime people should focus on flying not harassing ed and or anyone who will listen about how they only get shot down because of bugs or some obscure perceived fm fault which has little bearing on combat effectiveness in dcs. If there is real proof of 109 disadvantages which ed can did a good way to simulate I am 100% for its inclusion in the sim. In the meantime I'll enjoy what is still a superb combat flight sim.

The rudder/aileron trim script you are referring to cannot overcome the max stick deflection limits built in at speed in the 109. Therefore they have no bearing or effect on the max achievable roll/yaw rates etc achievable at a given speed. The only difference it makes is that the player doesn't have to balance the controls but use the trim hat. Impractical for combat flying considering how much this balance varies during turns climbs dives etc. It's a bit of a hack but by no means an autopilot aimbot for the 109. Both pilot and machine are important. A machine can only give so much but it will only give it to a pilot who knows how to squeeze that performance out of it. Figuring out how to do this is what makes dcs fun for me. As it stands the 109 and the mustang are more closely matched than ever. This will change once the slats return but no one can say for sure by how much. It is by no means impossible to win in a mustang. There are plenty of pilots who do it. I see them behind me every time I hop on the server. Most of the time in dcs at the moment if you lose you've either made a mistake or you're new and still learning etc. I got killed a lot when starting out as well and I still do. An extra 200 hp won't help a pilot who doesn't know how to use it. There are so many comments on the server chat and in the forums about the 'bs 109' and the op 109 damage model that some people here are getting tired of hearing it. Especially when there are real people who regularly manage to overcome all of these insurmountable problems and kill us anyway. I don't think any of us are saying that dcs in its current state is perfect and nothing should be changed. The mustang deserves a period comparable engine rating/ac configuration. ED has said this is coming. The damage models are a problem for pilots on both sides. ED is working on it. At the end of the day a simulation can only hope to come so close to reality. ED is doing their best to get these things as accurate as possible but it takes time. I think some people here would find more success/have more fun if they put that stuff to the side for a bit and just accepted that the aircraft is what it is (for now, once again not saying that we should ignore problems, just that we need to have some patience for the things that ED has already said are coming) and spent some time figuring out how to use it to its full potential. When the slats got closed we all got used to it, adjusted our fighting style and moved on. Sure it's a bit annoying and not right but tbh after a week of flying it I'm hardly bothered any more. It should be fixed but I'm still having fun in the meantime.

Well sure Yo Yo won't work on the netcode. He'll work on FMs for other aircraft. Either way it's time spent 'fixing' things that arguably aren't broken. Also I never suggested that pilot/plane combo is unimportant. As you said both play and important role and a pilots ability to make use of his aircrafts performance (ergonomics) is a valid part of any simulation. The stick forces are one example of a good implementation of this concept. However the point I was trying to make was that the suggestions such as restricting flaps/trim use would be very difficult to implement and likely cause more headaches than they would solve. So let's say for a moment that the snug pit in the 109 was really a lasting and large hindrance and not something you get used to as some of the quotes above suggest. How do we simulate a tight cockpit? I for one am not in the market for a thrustmaster head smacked that whacks me every time I fly a roll... Once again I'm not suggesting we ignore the details and intricacies of aircraft performance. Those are the things that separate dcs from other sims. Just saying we should consider what we can realistically implement and how.

I think that the things we are talking about here are for one very difficult to simulate accurately and secondly would have a very minimal effect on the end simulation itself. At the most all it will be is a bit of a change in habits and maybe in extreme cases tactics for the 109 drivers but in the end the result will be the same. He (or she) who knows his/her plane better and has practiced with it will win. A quick google search for 'il2 Anthropomorphic controls' will tell you just about all you need to know about how well the attempt at such features in il2 went and how the community received it. If I can't use trim in combat whats to stop me from flying around with full tail heavy trim and adjusting the curves to set a new 'zero point' for the stick so I don't have to push the whole time. With the current FM (no slats) flaps use in combat is more problematic than it's worth and before it was useful but by no means a decisive advantage. These things will affect my approach to landing more than they will any dogfight. TBH making something like this takes time and effort which IMO would be better spent fixing the more important issues in DCS WWII atm such as netcode, new assets/flyables etc.

We don't know atm. Most people say it 'feels' like it's not just visual but we all know how much scientific value our feelings have :P. Only definitive answer can come from ED.

Actually I think what eekz was saying is true. Would make sense with the 'clamping' description in the changelog as well. Essentially it takes your input and if you have more stick movement that the theoretical max displacement at that speed then it just ignores it.

Since the update yesterday the slats no longer deploy. Tried it at multiple speeds and altitudes and they never come out. Not sure if it's only the visual model but since the changes in turn performance are pretty drastic since the update I'd assume they aren't being factored into the flight model either. I think alot of people would appreciate some sort of info from the devs about what all was actually changed in the 109 FM and why, considering the changelog was somewhat vague.

Yup I'm in too. DefaultFace Bf 109K-4

I can pretty much say the same about my experience but I think that it's due to my lack of P-51 experience and since I'm used to the 109 I sometimes try to fight it like it is one, which simply doesn't work. If you try you'll usually stall all over the place and feel like your airplane is underpowered. I get a similar feeling when I sit in the Dora. I don't know how to make use of my advantages so I try multiple things, some of which are from my 109 'instincts'. I agree that I can control the fight more in the 109 but thats cause I know how to fight its strengths and to force my oponent to do what I want him to. To be fair doing these things in the Mustang is probably somewhat more abstract and harder to understand/get used to and practice with. The 109's style suits the classical perception of a dogfight where its all about turning better than the other guy and getting above him. Turn and climb are easy for people to understand whereas I feel like Mustang tactics are maybe slightly less intuitive/require a more thorough understanding of how air combat works. Like I said it's obviously not impossible. The best thing to do is find the guys who know how to do it and see if they would be so kind as to share some of their secrets with you :P