Havner

Ok, up to here we have a full understanding. Sorry, I still don't understand. Let's get some facts here. The reference points for trim/hold/default AP mode are pitch/bank/heading/altitude. No speed. Let's just focus on the first 2. AP has 20% of authority. I move the cyclic by a very little ammount. Just enough to see the nose move (let's say pitch down). So the autopilot has to use only small input to counter it and try to get back to the refence pitch? That's what are you saying? So why doesn't it use it? I'm not increasing the error during the test. I move the cyclic by small ammount, the nose pitches down by small ammount and I keep it like this. Agreed as the game shows. Just trying to get the facts here. Isn't small user input also an error for the AP? It's defined correct attitude is changed by it.

AFAIK you should be able. The english disc version is no different than the onlie version. Same DRM, same serial. For the russian I don't know. The disc version had a different DRM than the online one. But still it provided the key. It should be possible as well though. The only thing is that it will probably allow you to upgrade in the same line (english to english or russian to russian).

But pilot input is actually causing the roll/yaw to move away from the datum as well. And as you said yourself that it's the same for roll/yaw (pitch/bank) so it should try to move it back. I'm not sure I understand you here. Are you saying that AP has more authority to overcome external causes then the pilot input? Or are you saying that it takes time for it to do so? The second is obvious. I do wait for it to stabilize (if there is anything to stabilize) after I move the cyclic. :-D Of course I have tried it. I know how it behaves. And again as I told you before. I'm not asking these questions to learn how to fly. I'm asking them to understand the details. I agree fully that the way pitch/bank hold works is somewhat intuitive. But if it works the way I think it does there shouldn't be a jump in case of the trimmer. And there is. So I'm trying to understand. Nice. This would actually explain everything. But: 1. If that was the case then the AP would not have the authority to counter the exact same pilot input in Hover mode while trying to go back to the earth reference point. And it does. Tested. 2. The "jump" would be equal to the 20% of the user input. While in real life the jump is equal to the amount of pitch/bank you caused on the plane. Pitch the heli forward by 5%, trim, it jumps by another 5%. Pitch it by 15%, trim, it jumps by another 15%. EDIT: Ok, I agree that the 2nd point might actually be very subjective. About the amount of the jump. But what about the 1st? If the AP is only correcting 20% of your input it would never have the authority to correct you for the hover mode. And it really does. Stabilize yourself in perfect hover, enable Hover AP and move the cyclic slightly to the left. It will counter it and go the right bank until it gets back above the datum earth point. Besides in the rest of the AP modes it would never be able to do anything when you don't move the stick. 20% of zero is zero.

Yeah, now I get what you're saying :-) But it doesn't seem to be the case in my opinion. I never said autopilot is not doing anything. Of course it is. It's just doing something different that I would expect it to. Let me elaborate on your case. You move the cyclic. 3 things are possible. 1. It starts to rotate and doesn't stop until you correct it (no autopilot) 2. It stays pitched in the direction of your cyclic move but doesn't counter by itself 3. It gets pitched in the direction of your cyclic move but tries to return to the set reference point. Now, both 2 and 3 require an autopilot. It's just that in my understanding number 3 should happen. Number 2 means only that the hold channel is still functioning around a new temporal reference point set by your shifted cyclic. The stabilization around that new point works. Thats for sure. So there is some autopilot contrary to a situation where there is none. But it doesn't use its 20% authority it should to return to the reference pitch/bank. And this is something I dont understand. Why it doesn't behave like in point 3. My impression from everyone describing the autopilot is that's the way it should. That when you have channels turned you have to 'fight' the autopilot. According to this you don't as it doesn't counter your input. Your input just changes the reference point around which autopilot stabilizes.

10% of its max movement. Below autopilot authority. Make it just a minor move. As little as possible to see the nose pitch down. Doesn't really matter. The principle is the same. What bothers me though is if thats the case there shouldn't be any jump in question 2. But there is. Sonething is not logical or just unexplained here.

Amen to that :-) Unfortunately we don't have anything else but our own discussions. I don't think there is anything more complete about AP that those articles. Maybe. That's why I'm trying to clarify. What is the behavior in the details. Because it differs a little from what he described.

Sorry for not clarifying. Not mentioning the official documentation as it is definitely lacking details on AP. But from the sources I've found. Specifically from the mentioned articles. There is no distinction between user input and external sources that can cause the bank/pitch changes. And it's also not mentioned in the part 2 describing Hold modes, that user inputs are treated differently then external sources. It's completely not about dissatisfaction. I can fly the heli and I can make it do what I want it to do. I just want to fully comprehend the details of the AP internal workings. Following the mentioned article.

I don't think you're supposed to get it over the target precisely by using the head (either head tracking or mouse) but close to the target and then use the collective slew commands for adjustments. I use HMS mostly in cases when I'm supposed to slew the shkval by large amounts. Eg. from one side to another.

Well, yes, it simulates something that's on your head to be used by moving it :-) You can slew without it. It's just slower.

3. I take it you use d-pad + O + HMS? Correct? That's not the way you're supposed to. The mouse from your case probably simulates head movement that's why you see it working. For non HMS case you hit O once to uncage and then use just the d-pad to slew it around. For a HMS case you need some head tracking (TIR, mouse, whatever). You enable HMS, hit and hold O and then move your head. Shkval should follow the HMS.

I think that's not exactly what I was asking. I mean it kinda was but your answer doesn't answer anything for me :-) For the first part of your post: My findings are different. In route/hover mode the AP tries to negate user input (Hover for sure, Route I will check again). Meaning that if I bank right by 5% with Hover on the AP will correct it back to 0% (it will actually try to go a little bit to the other side to go back to the reference point above the earth). 1. But my first question was about the default Bank/Pitch hold mode which _doesn't_ do that. And according to all the documentation it should. It just shifts the reference point by the user input (the exampled 5%) and keeps it shifted. Without AP yes, when you bank right by 5% you need a left cyclic to go back to 0%. This is obvious. About the second part: If you have a reference point for AP of bank at 0% and then you bank 5% as you say without the trimmer and the AP _doesn't_ correct you (it doesn't go back to 0%, it let's you stay at 5%) what input it has then? None. So by hitting the trimmer you are not canceling any of its input. So there shouldn't be a jump. In Hover, where AP does correct you: YES. In pitch/bank hold where it doesn't: NO jump. My question was: 2. Why the jump? And if you read carefully what you wrote you should also have an impression that there shouldn't be any jump. There was no correction. It just behaves like the reference point is shifted by this 5% and then kept. To sum up: 1. In the default pitch/bank hold mode why the AP doesn't correct user input? The user input just seems to shift the AP reference point. 2. If the AP in the default pitch/bank hold doesn't correct user input (from 1st question) why the jump when you just hit the trimmer when pitched/banked.

Collective? My example is based on cyclic. I know what collective brake is. I mentioned that the flight is stabilzed in altitude. I don't see a reference to your article. EDIT: As a side note I almost always use the collective brake when moving the collective. I see completely no relation between my questions and your article.

Hi. Again, not asking about complete basics. I know how the autopilot works, I fly it/use it without any problems. But recently when I asked about the dampening I was pointed to the following articles: http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_429a.html http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_430a.html It nicely summarized the knowledge, but after reading it I wanted to go further and understand everything completely. And I got two things that bother me and I can't find them explained. They even seem to behave in contrary to what is described there (I think). I fly with the center trimmer option so any accidental inputs caused by my joystick not returning to the center fast enough are excluded. 4 channels are on. Altitude is on barometric so we don't have any accidental nose movements. So to the questions: Let's stabilize the heli by the book at 150kph forward flat flight. Hold the trimmer, set the proper attitude, let it speed up to the 150kph, keep the speed, release the trimmer. Now the autopilot reference point for pitch and bank is as close as possible to the trim position. The autopilot doesn't have to fight the trim position much to keep the attitude. Let's split the forces the autopilot has to correct to the pilot input (stick movement) and external ones (weather, wind, air effects). With this flight when a wind will blow for a second I suppose the autopilot will try to correct the attitude to its remembered reference point within its 20% of authority. But let's add some user input. Let's gently push the stick forward (without the trim, not the proper solution, but that's my point) for about 10% of it's movement and let's keep it that way. The nose will dive and the pitch change is still within the autopilot authority. But the autopilot doesn't correct it. 1. Why? From what I see it does that in Route and Hover modes. But not in the default one (attitude keep). According to my understanding and the article it should. The same goes for bank. Route mode fights the pilot input. The default one doesn't. Having said that (that the autopilot for some reason doesn't correct the user input in the default mode) let's push the stick even further (20-30%) and let the heli stabilize. Then hit (just hit once, push and release immediately) the trimmer. The nose will dive (not because of my joystick, the diamond on the red overlay with stick positions doesn't move a pixel). I get that this might happen when autopilot is using its max authority of 20% and by hitting the trimmer we release it immediately. But here as per point 1. it wasn't using any of its authority. 2. So why the dive? It should just remember the current pitch/bank as a new reference point and keep it. I hope it's understandable. If needed I can provide tracks but I think it's easy enough to do by yourself.

Thanks guys. This has been really helpful.

Just get me right, I'm not asking about basics of autopilot/trim control. I'm asking what is dampening and dampening only. I don't exactly get this term and I didn't manage to find it anywhere. The only mention I found is that it help with player induced oscilations. What is it? To put things into perspective. Per flight manual: pitch, bank and heading channels have two options, dampening and hold. The hold part I get very well. But when you leave them on and enable FD the hold part is turned off. Dampening stays. My question would be: What is the difference between FD and a situation where all the channels are turned off completely? I can't see any and in theory they differ by this dampening. Also what exactly is turned off when you hold the trimmer? Dampening, hold, both? Or just the heading hold? The last one is definitely turned off.

Hmm, actually when i think of it it should be able to program in TM TARGET software using leds on warthog throttle to help to navigate. Will try :-) EDIT: yep, it was possible :-D Some on screen visual indicator would be great, but I'd need to write some D3D overlay. For now led indicator and own memory will do.

2 questions regarding comms. 1. Is there some nice way to assign communications menu to HOTAS without wasting 12 buttons? Something like: "next entry", "prev entry", "confirm", "go back". To navigate F1-F12 comm options? This could be assigned to some HAT. 2. What is the purpose of: "Switch dialog" and "Switch to main menu"? LShift+\ and LCtrl+\ respectively. What is this "menu" in the upper left corner? Thanks.

That would make sense as well. Unfortunately both versions are a possibility - that you will be able to play them late in 2014 in both (World and WW2) or just in WW2. Would really like to see some official comment.

I achieved this by implementing the Trimmer myself in TARGET (exactly the same way as in BS, hit the trimmer, axis are locked, recenter the stick, axis get's unlocked). It only works for the stick leaving the rudder alone. And I don't use BS built-in trimmer at all. I know not everyone has TM Warthog (or Cougar) but for some at least this is an option. Additionally with this I can do minor corrections to the trimmer using a hat (plane like). I found it very useful. I can give the profile is anyone's interested.

So basically the only "other" difference between those pledges was dependent on stretch goals that don't seem to be achievable now? How will you explain this sentence then:

This is _exactly_ what I'm trying to establish here. From my understanding they will be available on $65+ and $85+ as full DCS modules (and available as soon as possible). But it has been mentioned that they will be also available as "payable" aircrafts you can choose for $20-$40 pledges. But those will be available on DCS WW2 release and only for DCS WW2. If that is not a case then there is no difference between $10 and $40 pledges. I'm starting to repeat myself in several threads but nobody here seem to know the answer unfortunately :-( http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=114011

Both of those are correct for $65+ and $85+ pledges. NOT $20-$40. And those are the ones we're talking about.

This was my understanding that came from this thread: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=114011. In general they are supposed to be cross compatible, with an exception of the P51 and Dora chosen from $20-$40. Now I'm not so sure that is the case. But if it's not then there is no real difference between $10 and $40 pledges. And I'm even more confused now. I wish we could get any.

Please elaborate here. So what is exactly new here (in contrast to before this sentence was said)? What does this sentence mean? Before it it was known that P51 and Dora will be compatible with DCS WW2. No news here. What does it mean that they will be a part of DCS WW2 once its released? Does it mean that by pledging $65+ you can get P51 now but by pledging $20 you can get it only after DCS WW2 is released but it will be usable everywhere anyway? There is so many unknowns in here... I wish someone had clarified this properly. Because for now I still don't see any real difference between $10 and $40 (assuming stretches won't be reached).

Sorry to disappoint you, but if you get all the tips together you're not exactly right. And there seem to be a big problem with actually getting accurate information here so putting all the tips together is the only option. What you said is correct. It's just not a complete information. DCS: WW2 provides 3 planes for free. I think they are usable everywhere. DCS: P51 and DCS: Dora can be obtained through DCS or DCS:World level kickstarter pledges ($65+) and are usable everywhere. So to this point it's like you said. But: In addtion to that there are P51 and Dora licenses that you can choose as payable DCS WW2 aircrafts for $20-$40 pledges that are only usable in DCS WW2. At least that's what Ilya said. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944/posts/597595 If that's not what he meant, then sorry. But in this case the difference between $10 and $40 is none as there are no payable aircrafts without stretches. Have a look here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=114011