maxsin72

And you obviously think he did, even if he told he did the maneuver with perfection (art science)

He did it with "art science" and do you really think he broke torque tubes only to win roast beef and cocktails vs an F18 in a mock dogfight? A top gun instructor? A Navy Captain?

:lol:

He didn't breaks the flaps: in his short story he say I have in the Tomcat that was prohibited manoeuvre of using full flaps, but I turned it into art science

Thank you for your kind answer :)

@IronMike Is there the possibility you contact Captain Dale Snodgrass? He knows for sure the real life limits of the Tomcat and would be great to have his opinion. Here is a link to the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum, you could contact them to ask how contact Captain Snodgrass. https://fightson.net/304/capt-dale-snort-snodgrass-lectures-at-the-smithsonian-national-air-and-space-museum/ It would be really really great :)

Exactly, he pulled the F14 in the vertical at 325 knots IAS with full flaps and full afterburner without any damage and this was for real and he was not the only one. So i think full flaps can be an option also in the simulation. I think the best solution could be search for info about what happened in real life, please see also this: I would really like to fly F14 to his real limits like in real life and i'll be very very sorry if full flaps or really g tolerance will be limited in a not realistic way.

edited

Hi Darkman i'ìm sorry but we are free people of free countries and we can have different opinion. I never bullied anybody but i was bullied because they told me i'm only a "fanboy", "troll or is like a kid without a clue.... or an adult with some broken mental faculties...." and so on but i never answered to this provocation. But, from what i'have seen, seems normal i can be insulted without any conseguence. May be i'm wrong, may be not, i have documented my opinion and what happened in justdogfight server it's not pertinent in this discussion and i never talked about justdogfight. Consider also that F14 breaks its wings past 10 Gs in DCS and that in real life a real pilot told that for his mistake he pulled 12.5g with his F14 without any damage. See you :)

I think nowadays it's how you write. However, keep in mind that we are talking about events from 45 years ago and perhaps things were different then from today. There are several testimonies of old F14 pilots who speak of an out-of-the-way use on the internet and, perhaps, others that have not ended up on the internet have. So maybe, at the time, it wasn't so uncommon for F14 pilots to do forbidden things. After all, Grumman seems to have over-engineered the F14 making it much more robust than the minimum specifications required

I have reported of Snodgrass but there are also Satrapa, Nance and perhaps others who did not respect limits without say anything to anybody. Obviously this was not common and most of the pilots i think respected rules but Snodgrass was not absolutely alone. And remember i'm talking only about F14. So or Snodgrass, Satrapa, and Nance lied or they did really all that and in my opinion the fact they did it is the only thing that matters.

I agree with you that is not the norm but this is obvious and no, i don't think that disallowed "configuration" was a common tactic. I think it was a possibility for that kind of pilot very skilled, often chosen by superiors to fight in particular situations: best F15 pilots vs best F14 pilots because nobody wanted to lost the challenge, so Snodgrass was allowed to did all that, him and probably few others while thousands upon thousands of fighter pilots were not allowed. Also Joe Satrapa pulled his F14 at 8.5g and Keith Nance admittend he didn't look many times at 6.5 g limit. So Snodgrass is not alone and other pilots perhaps didn't respect the limits but i think much of them won't like to publicize all this.

A person's credibility also depends on their CV and the ability to document their claims. You say there are dozens of people with 4000+ flying hours on the same plane in the last 50 years - document it. I also repeat that I trust more in what Snodgrass says than in what you say because you have never flown on a Tomcat. You and Mover also told me i'm a fanboy: 1. it's not the truth, 2. look at yours fanboys that insult me with "nice" words because i don't agree with their heros, i never insult anybody because i'm only interested in arguments.

No, you did not understand. Snodgrass said that every time he met very skilled pilots in strong planes ( F15, F18 ) he configured and used F14 in prohibited ways because he was able and free to do it. Tell me why, when occurred the occasion, they asked him to fight against F15 or they let him fight with F18 and they let him to do in prohibited mode? I don't know the answer but he did it many times, every times that was the only way to beat his opponent, and also his opponent fought till the last drop of fuel and under the limit of altitude. Perhaps 30 years ago things were different.

One question: how many pilots do you know have flown the same fighter jet in the last 50 years more then 26 years and more then 4800 hours? I like Snodgrass but i'm not the fanboy of anybody, as said, i think Snodgrass knows F14 better then F16 or F18 pilots.

No, i didn't ignore anything. Simply i don't agree with you because of those Snodgrass words: Well, I, like I say, I’ve been pretty successful against eagles in my time. Um, but at to answer actually truthfully if you look at, if you look at a like an [inaudible] straight up at 14 a versus an f 15 clean, no, no, no big tanks in rails on and those kinds of things. The F 15 is a, has a, is a higher performing aeroplane, but it all comes down to an end game and all this stuff. It all comes down to the pilot and the f 14 you could, as I mentioned before, you can configure it certain ways and all of a sudden it turns into another animal. So when I fought really quality pilots in those kinds of aeroplanes and I configured my aeroplane in the prohibited configuration, I generally wound up, I could present an aeroplane that was superior to theirs in the slow speed environment.

Nobody spoke about "widely accepted practice.", but it happened and who did it was the most important pilot in F14 history, don't forget it.

Also you are on internet, do you forgot it? That said, tell me something about this: Do you think perhaps to be more "real" or more skilled or simply to know more about F14 then Captain Snodgrass?

In real life a real pilot, Snodgrass, with more then 4800 hours during 26 years on F14 did it many times: he pulled more G and he used full flaps and he told all about this just last year.

I understood it was your first time in the simulated Tomcat, i took this example to remark the huge difficulties to percept g force inside the simulated Tomcat, especially during an hard dogfight. With others simulated jet, who have the g-limiter and g-indicator, there are much less difficulties to respect imposed limits. I just told that with a real jet is more easy to keep under control g force so i believe you. The problem is with simulated jet. Yes, that's true, i seemed to have always been clear about this but i also think i wrote my arguments, right or wrong they are, but i also would like to learn more. This weekend i'm away with my family but i would have liked to have participated, even though i think i would have been eliminated very soon

I'm sorry but i think you miss the point. I think that on a real Tomcat you would have noticed all that acceleration of gravity without the need to look at the indicator and you would never have reached such high G values. On a real plane it is much easier to control the g, and consider also that on a real Tomcat you have a much better view of the cockpit and of the g indicator, expecially if you use VR and you have a very limited field of view. Lost view is lost fight. To balance the difference with reality it would be necessary at least to be able to see the g on the HUD. I repeat i don't want to change the rule, i'm just interested in thinking thoroughly about the subject. Thanks for the answer.

It was an attempt to focus of the fact that on a simulated tomcat, without G-indicator on the HUD, without a stick that become heavier increasing turn rate and G and without a body who feels G like in real life, also a real pilot can very easy loose this parameter. One question, please: is the g-limit an instant limit or is it for sustained turn?

@Mover Excuse me Sir but you have reached 10+ g on the Tomcat. Who knows what maintenance thought? Didn't you keep an eye on the G indicator?

I understood and i like the "sense" of the tournament. I was only answering to the ones who reply at my posts. :)