Mighty amraam not so mighty in real life?

Really? ...

 

Are you looking through 'I-fear-the-AMRAAM' tinted goggles there?

 

:lol:

 

Here we go again ...

 

P.S.

:lock: perhaps?

It should be worse :P

 

Not as bad as it is in game.

Missile evasion was completely done by MK I Eyeball method (mind you, no lock warning, no radar warning, nothing - SPO15 were dead due to poor maintenance and electronics warfare going on) - you see incoming AMRAAM and evade.

I think SPO-15 won't be dead like that in such populated air. More likely it will cry and whistle all the time from takeoff.

He made it up.

 

Im not like you... Info was from an F-15 pilot, in a military exercise he told it to one of the HuAF pilot.

Edited January 10, 2013 by 59th_Buncsi
misunderstable

I think SPO-15 won't be dead like that in such populated air. More likely it will cry and whistle all the time from takeoff.

 

Maintenance was nonexistent at the time - Yugoslavia was under heavy UN arms embargo since early '90s, and almost all SPO-15s were inoperable in '99. And yes, those which had been working were useless and saturated from airborne radars and electronic warfare going on. So pilots probably shut them off ...

Edited January 10, 2013 by danilop

Ok. first of all thank you gg for your last reply. that cleared up couple of thing for me, in addition of comparing fc2 track with fc3 tracks.

I noticed that in fc2 i was able to splash/force the F-15 on defensive earlier, thus preventing me to get in to NEZ (preventing the eagle pilot to launch that 120 that close to me that they can do now) of the amraam due to longer legs of the fc2 r27er + the problem you mentioned with the current 3d model makin me more "visible" have made me easier for the eagle pilot to keep up with my maneuvers.

 

And i have to tell you that i had gotten used to being able to maintain lock and avoiding the slammer if i just time, and choose my turns wisely while performing the turns at max g at right speed (not an easy task btw).

Previously my success rate with this approach was higher than you might think, and thats why i still believe that once we get our 3d model and the patch im still able to fight the eagles this way. Like in the video the other USAF guys says that all missles are defeatable becauce they rely on so many variables.

 

And i think that this is the way it should be. I think that a pilot that can visualize the situation well, should be able to cause enough problems for the missle, any missle for that matter to miss, without necessarily breaking the lock. I'm not suggesting it should be easy, but possible. This would also make the game more interesting and exiting, and imo more realistic. Bear in mind that no real life pilot can practice missle evasion as much as we virtual pilots can, or as safely as we can. That's why i believe that we, the computer pilots should be able to out perform records of real life engagements. We do it SO much without self preservation being in the way of our development as pilots.

 

Waiting for the new 3d model and the patch.

 

Best wishes.

 

Kelju

 

P.S

And yeah most of the uber behaviour of the slammer that i have encountered, has been online. hope that issue will be fixed in the future aswell.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Kelju_K

Ok. first of all thank you gg for your last reply.

 

You're welcome.

 

And i have to tell you that i had gotten used to being able to maintain lock and avoiding the slammer if i just time, and choose my turns wisely while performing the turns at max g at right speed (not an easy task btw).

Yes and this is good, but realize that a simple max-g turn should not be enough to save you unless the shot is particularly long. Right now it works for a number of reasons that we don't need to go into, but eventually (probably in a long time :P ) you will need to use more proper technique to evade the missile, especially if it has not slowed down much.

 

Previously my success rate with this approach was higher than you might think, and thats why i still believe that once we get our 3d model and the patch im still able to fight the eagles this way. Like in the video the other USAF guys says that all missles are defeatable becauce they rely on so many variables.

Yes, all missiles are defeatable, quite correct. Some more than others, and potentially for different reasons. :) However all evasive actions that you can take, at least within the game, are very similar. They go from low to medium to high risk of your plane being shot down.

 

And i think that this is the way it should be. I think that a pilot that can visualize the situation well, should be able to cause enough problems for the missle, any missle for that matter to miss, without necesarily breakin the lock.

Not really. Think about it this way, just to avoid introducing new missiles, we'll talk about firing R-27ER and AIM-120 inside mutual Rtr (it used to be called NEZ, but they stopped calling it this for a reason :D ). The guy firing the 27 will be shot down if he doesn't break lock. The guy launching the 120 can go completely defensive right away and has a higher chance of deafeating the 27 for a number of reasons: Worse angle for the 27, possible notch, possibly the 27 shooter is shot down before his missile gets where it's going, etc.

 

But, in this 1v1 situation, why is the 27 shooter not going to the notch against the 120? Why keep lock at all if the other guy went defensive?

 

This would also make the game more interesting and exiting, and imo more realistic. Bear in mind that no real life pilot can practice missle evasion as much as we virtual pilots can, or as safely as we can, due to cost issues alone. That's why i believe that we, the computer pilots should be able to out perform records of real life engagements. We do it SO much without self preservation being in the way of our developement.

Yes, and that we cannot change. However do realize that RL missiles do better than what we have in-game right now (and sometimes worse :) ). Missiles will continue to see improvement; improvement is needed on the part of the launcher's avionics as well, but that is another matter (that affects missiles). A lot of kills happen simply because people don't know how to do. A few kills between skilled players will happen most often on the 'he who fires first wins' principle, as it should be.

 

P.S

And yeah most of the uber behaviour of the slammer that i have encountered, has been online. hope that issue will be fixed in the future aswell.

It's not just the slammer, all missiles do it... it's just that people only look at what hits them, and of course your own missiles will always show correctly on your own tracks.

Just yesterday I was shot down by an R-77 that detonated 500m away from me ... just as an example. I've seen an R-73 do 3 loops around its target to hit it.

But, this is a rare event and most of the time MP A2A works out just fine. I know that the devs are working on MP stability right now, and that is probably more important right at this moment.

Edited January 10, 2013 by GGTharos

...

Just yesterday I was shot down by an R-77 that detonated 500m away from me ...

 

Ahhhhh .... nothing serious, just some Russian EM pulses discharging around ... :music_whistling:

 

 

Now, model this :lol:

 

On a serious note, the majority of top secret research going on ATM is based on Tesla's papers.

On a serious note, the majority of top secret research going on ATM is based on Tesla's papers.

 

As it is on works by Maxwell, Marconi, Gauss, Einstein, well, i could go on.

True, of course - that's all well known, but Tesla was really into weapons, and only lately the potential of his research is recognized ;)

But, in this 1v1 situation, why is the 27 shooter not going to the notch against the 120? Why keep lock at all if the other guy went defensive?.

Ofcourse i would be in the notch in that situation!!

Right now if i start to launch er's at 30 km the eagle doesnt have to go defensive more than taking me at gimbals of his radar while i have to go to the notch. And that is the reason i been trying to find the "hole". This is all i want really, to be able to force the eagle to notch without going in to NEZ(or whatever..)

So that i have chances to find him first after my notch!!! my notch doesnt do me any good if the eagle can maintain lock. i would have to extend anyway in that situation.

 

Obviously this is what i did in FC2. cant do it now. not with er's anyway.

AMRAAM PK is much more than 60% in the game ATM ...

 

Talk to Case, hell show you figures closer to 30% from his server stats.

Ofcourse i would be in the notch in that situation!!

Right now if i start to launch er's at 30 km the eagle doesnt have to go defensive more than taking me at gimbals of his radar while i have to go to the notch. And that is the reason i been trying to find the "hole". This is all i want really, to be able to force the eagle to notch without going in to NEZ(or whatever..)

 

You really shouldn't be able to do this easily; head to head 'fair' encounter, you should be disadvantaged. You shouldn't be feeling comfortable, this sort of thing should always be risky. While the ER (or AMRAAM, or both) needs tuning to perform more realistically, realize that the game lets you do something you shouldn't be able to do in RL: Take the first, or simultaneous shot vs. an Eagle. In a 'fair' encounter, you'd get your shot at about the same time as your RWR starts screaming at you about 120's coming in. In that respect, you have it pretty good in-game, or at least you will.

And if i got the eagle to go defensive early enough i could maintain lock and get his ass on eos and wait him to recommit and send et at him, then extend.

a good pilot stayed in the fight long enough to force me to notch but so did i to him. then it was more or less equal terms but mostly eagle pilots fought so safely that they gave me the chance to gain the upper hand. now they have no fear of the er and im the one running or dead. as for gameplay, to me its allmost the same..

 

"You really shouldn't be able to do this easily"

Easy is not what im askin here. just possible.

 

Anyway. this is all i have to say on the matter before the pacth. get back to you after that.

 

Kelju

Edited January 10, 2013 by Kelju_K

There are two basic somewhat exclusive methods for missile evasion. Energy depletion or sensor spoofing. What was once effective for energy depletion strategies in FC2 aren't going to in FC3, at least not under the same parameters. The AFM has fixed/begun fixing a lot of what was wrong about with missile handling as far as energy is concerned. This means you need to be paying way more attention to your opponent's energy state and altitude at launch or when they most likely launched with the case of TWS.

 

Now if you can figure out how to reliably spoof the sensor, energy state becomes a non issue. That's what I practice, all while setting up for a max energy shot. Against the dedicated Su-27 pilots who refuse to disengage, if I fail to spoof the ER it won't matter cause I expect radar guiding it to be nonexistent soon enough.

Yes you can definitely do that :)

 

A lot of people do not fight agressively. Anyway like I said ... missiles are still being tuned, and they still need a lot of tuning for various reasons. Hopefuly after all this the newer SARH's will be a lot more respectable.

From bad position, at Rmax, or worse Launch override.

 

You really shouldn't be able to do this easily; head to head 'fair' encounter, you should be disadvantaged. You shouldn't be feeling comfortable, this sort of thing should always be risky. While the ER (or AMRAAM, or both) needs tuning to perform more realistically, realize that the game lets you do something you shouldn't be able to do in RL: Take the first, or simultaneous shot vs. an Eagle. In a 'fair' encounter, you'd get your shot at about the same time as your RWR starts screaming at you about 120's coming in. In that respect, you have it pretty good in-game, or at least you will.

... that the game lets you do something you shouldn't be able to do in RL: Take the first, or simultaneous shot vs. an Eagle.

There is no GCI in game to tell you the distance to target in heavy ECM environment. Thus, although ER has more range (and is faster?) then AMRAAM, it can not be used properly in a game.

 

What do you mean that in real life you can not take the first shot?

 

SAM = Stealth STOP!

Talk to Case, hell show you figures closer to 30% from his server stats.

 

Case is probably wrong ... :)

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1648621#post1648621

You flunked at the subject of statistics didnt you? :D

Case's figures are based on over 100000 in-game missile shots.

 

And by the way, we don't use AI to judge missile performance.

Really?

 

It's obvious what's going on in software!!!!!

 

F-15 and their weapon systems are unrealistically modeled. Case study only prove well known fact that the Russian pilots are simply better

 

:lol::lol::lol:

MP Pk is a red herring, the doctrine for correct parameter launch and weapon conservation is lost on many an online nub. ;)

MP Pk is a red herring, the doctrine for correct parameter launch and weapon conservation is lost on many an online nub. ;)

 

It's still better that making one mission, running it once, AI vs AI, and then thinking you've got a statistic. :)

 

That said, as has been repeated oh so often: missiles are still being tuned for AFM and performance will not be as intended, yet.

Hey everyone, this thread has been a great read. But... I'm coming into FC3 as a huge newb. I've never played LOMAC, FC1 / 2, so A2A tactics are a HUGE learning curve to me.

 

I see a lot of people bandying about some of the following terms as if common fireside chat (if you read the thread from start to finish you'll probably see the same):

a.) Beaming

b.) Notch / notching

c.) Knowing the energy state of the opposing aircraft

d.) "Extending"

e.) Being able to keep enemy locked at edge of radar extremes (azimuth) as a moderate defensive measure

f.) Understanding that firing AIM-120 at Rt means it is "Pitbull" immediately and Eagle pilot can go defensive and/or break lock

 

Then I hear the routine complaints (or is it just chest pounding?) that lots of newbs on servers just don't know what they're doing and this game is not challenging enough etc. I'll tell you... much of the time I sign onto the 51st or 104th I see a bunch of F15C drivers and a few Su guys (rarely a Mig guy... meh... I guess because avionics are rough despite having R-77 capability). At any rate... I decide to learn Su-27 to provide more "sport" on the servers and learn a thing or two...

 

My point is... a LOT of the tactics you're talking about are unfamiliar to me (and I'm sure countless others). I don't even know which terms I don't know. I think it could go a long way if someone could post some links to the "primer(s)" on A2A / BVR for us new to A2A guys coming in with the release of the FC3 Beta. I (for one) would supremely appreciate it.

 

One of the huge draws of this Sim is to learn about things I couldn't experience in RL and I see many of you talking about stuff, but I can't find it in the threads and I haven't been immersed in it since the early days of FC.

 

Would certainly appreciate the help, since I rarely know how to:

a.) Determine how far a missile is from me based upon RWR... lots of times seems no smoke cause missile motor is off at that point

b.) How to go defensive then reacquire enemy w/out being blasted

c.) Be able to aggres. as Su pilot an F15C guy successfully, despite what I'm seeing about AIM-120 being pretty defeat-able (I seem to die always)

 

I realize this is somewhat tldr and also somewhat off topic, but if you want more, better players to fight and make the A2A more respectable... this is a good place for this in this particular thread because my mind is screaming... HOW!?!?! (and yeah... I do/have searched the forums... which is why I'm reading and responding to this thread).

 

Thanks a bunch guys and thanks for the great conversation. Very interesting.

 

"Snipe"

Edited January 11, 2013 by arteedecco