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Dogfight with IR misiles


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This evening I tried some fights against a medium level AI Mig-23 with my F-15C. I had 2 Aim-9m and 2 Aim-9p against an enemy with only one IR missile. I played this scenario 12 times. In 10 fights all of my sidewinders missed their target while shooting from behind within a mile of the Mig-23 which not even dropped a flare.

 

The Su-25T Training Mission with R-60 and R-73 AAM's against a helicopter, i got hit rates of 10% during 7 engagements.

 

I won 80% of the fights by using my gun but this can't be the answer

 

Are the IR missiles really this bad or was a former update responsible for this downgrade.

 

You can try the mission....

F-15C dogfight.miz

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There are "some" problems regarding the flight model of rockets.....

 

Your experience is one of them.

 

For example, read this thread: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=129187

 

 

Bit

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Ok, thanks. I would like to stay at the IR missiles but when reading the linked thread I remember firing my Aim-120B's at 10-15nm head on until I get a M0 at 12000ft. Not outstanding for a weapon which should travel 45nm+ in a head on....

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I played this scenario 12 times. In 10 fights all of my sidewinders missed their target while shooting from behind within a mile of the Mig-23 which not even dropped a flare.

There are some issues with missiles, but that hit rate sounds extremely low. Are you giving the missiles lead, or just shooting as soon as you get a lock on? If doing the latter, that's probably what's wrong.

 

In many cases, missiles benefit from being aimed like guns. They are guided weapons yes, but they only have so much tracking.

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I try to add a bit of lead. Due to the small seeker cone my chances are not very good. Especially when flying the Su-25T I only get the high pitch tone when the target is directly under the aiming cross. It's a little better when using Sidewinders but nothing compared to FalconBMS deadly missiles.

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This isn't BMS, and BMS doesn't get everything right, either.

 

I don't see a track where you're using your missiles - a mission doesn't help, since it doesn't show what you're doing.

 

Missiles can be Rminned. If you're shooting from too close, or the bandit aspect is too high (or preferably a combination of both), the missile will fail to guide.

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DCS Weapons and Systems Improvements

 

 

Missiles can be Rminned. If you're shooting from too close, or the bandit aspect is too high (or preferably a combination of both), the missile will fail to guide.

 

Hi I support that totally! :thumbup:

 

I gather you guys being testers and all that I would imagine that your testing and sending feed back to developers right for better missile performance and modelling and updates after careful consideration, is that how it internally works. Or are there other Testers for DCS weapons modeling so on?

 

Watch @ 0.28.................

 

 

 

 

The best I could find as examples.

 

Aspect Angles and Turn Speeds are tricky here tail end hits are not necessarily kills but hits through the center frame / body mass completely destroys the air craft and if you replay the first video a few times you do see a tendency of guidance loss or maybe me dreaming here.

 

Not all hits are kills, deadly is not necessarily accurate modeling again many variables here that are not mentioned, better record ACMI's to analyze.

 

I read else where a few weeks ago that more refinement and testing on weapons will come after EDGE Update 2.0.0 so if bugs are being found hopefully improvements will come later.

 

Just my 2c here was reading thread out of interest.

 

Cheers,

 

:beer:


Edited by WRAITH

 

DCS FORUM SIG.jpg

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Hmm.. My experience with the AIM-9M is pretty good. I always take 1 when flying the F-15. And that one almost hits every time i shoot it. I always try to shoot it in between 2.5 and 1.4 miles. Make sure the target is not turning to sharp before firing and lead it. And if you are firing head on you have to make sure the closing rate of the target and you is not to high. If so you have to time the shot more early. But i always fire it against human pilots not AI.

Go in close, and when you think you are too close, go in closer.

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But i always fire it against human pilots not AI.
That's the key. The AI has the uncanny ability to know exactly when you hold down the launch button and start spamming flares until your missile misses or they run out of flares. :hmm:

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Hi I support that totally! :thumbup:

 

I gather you guys being testers and all that I would imagine that your testing and sending feed back to developers right for better missile performance and modelling and updates after careful consideration, is that how it internally works. Or are there other Testers for DCS weapons modeling so on?

 

Watch @ 0.28.................

 

 

 

 

The best I could find as examples.

 

Aspect Angles and Turn Speeds are tricky here tail end hits are not necessarily kills but hits through the center frame / body mass completely destroys the air craft and if you replay the first video a few times you do see a tendency of guidance loss or maybe me dreaming here.

 

Not all hits are kills, deadly is not necessarily accurate modeling again many variables here that are not mentioned, better record ACMI's to analyze.

 

I read else where a few weeks ago that more refinement and testing on weapons will come after EDGE Update 2.0.0 so if bugs are being found hopefully improvements will come later.

 

Just my 2c here was reading thread out of interest.

 

Cheers,

 

:beer:

 

AIM-9M and AIM-9X have different Seeker heads, -9X can See further off Boresight, not to mention upgrades to 3D Thrust Vectoring and reduced drag.

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This isn't BMS, and BMS doesn't get everything right, either.

 

I don't see a track where you're using your missiles - a mission doesn't help, since it doesn't show what you're doing.

 

Missiles can be Rminned. If you're shooting from too close, or the bandit aspect is too high (or preferably a combination of both), the missile will fail to guide.

 

 

I know it is not Falcon and there is not everything fine. I fly it since 1998 and DCS (former Lock on) since 2009. But you can't tell there was no change in IR-AAM behaviour. I will record some tracks the next days. As it was stated later it can be a problem against AI.

 

As long as I record my flights you can try the AAM-training of the SU-25T and tell me how you get the Blackhawk during the initial run. In my opinion the mission setup is not longer made for the current missile performance or the missile performance was downgraded a bit...

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Yes, there are changes. All these missiles use reticle seekers. Against helicopter + flares, they will always go for flares.

 

I think you are correct about missions, but unfortunately it is not easy to create them with respect to future changes.

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I am new so I can't comment on the history of how they used to work. But I've been lately trying to get a handle on the R-60M and R-73 with the SU-25T.

 

I have noticed that they usually miss unless I am close enough to see a clear outline of the target's shape and have the crosshairs very close to perfectly on him. When those conditions are met, the missile always seems to hit. With the 60M I'm so close I worry about ramming if I miss!

 

My last encounter was with an Apache. I thought I was sneaking up behind him, but as soon as I hit the fire button I noticed he was looking right at me. About one second later I was shredded by his machine gun. Three seconds after that, he exploded from my 60M.

 

Hunting other aircraft with the SU-25T is like hunting poisonous snakes with a rubber band gun in bare feet!

 

D

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Yes, there are changes. All these missiles use reticle seekers. Against helicopter + flares, they will always go for flares.

 

I think you are correct about missions, but unfortunately it is not easy to create them with respect to future changes.

 

Ok thanks, I think that seems to be the problem. Fast mover tracks will take some days but I attached the Tacview (no replays of tutorials to save) of the Su-25T AAM tutorial. Firing one R-73 at first lock on, the second 4 seconds later, no hit. Without a track I did it with all four Missiles, all missing but as you say helicopters plus flares seem to be special.

 

I should think of playing the UH-1 module in doghfight :megalol:

Tacview.txt.acmi.zip

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@ GGTharos, thanks for your input.Don't have much spare time at the moment and was only able to fly one mission this evening (added as tacview). As far as I know from public sources there is a 5s limit to enable the warhead when using sidewinders. I think that was the meaning of minimum range posted further above. My first sidewinder was fired from ~618m with a good lock on tone (should be less than the minimum range) but seem to be not even start guiding towards the enemy. Missile G's never exceeded 10,7 (during boost). The second one launched at ~480m (better aspect for sure) hit the target. Since the 9P is called all aspect I thought it would start manouvering immediately after launch but maybe I'm to spoiled by the 9x :music_whistling:

 

 

So my last point were the tutorial missions with attacking helicopters at an awkward aspect but as you stated many things changed and missions are not priority. Thanks all people for answering my questions :thumbup:

Tacview-20140828-205251.txt.acmi.zip

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9P is tail aspect only. 9M is all aspect. M is the better missile. P is a cheap export weapon.

Awaiting: DCS F-15C

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9P is tail aspect only. 9M is all aspect. M is the better missile. P is a cheap export weapon.

 

Ok, maybe a Wikipedia mistake or some misunderstandings with sub-models...

 

AIM-9P Verbesserte Variante AIM-9J/N mit verschiedenen Subvarianten. P-1: Einsatz des aktiven Laser-Annäherungszünders der AIM-9L. P-2: Verwendung eines raucharmen Raketenmotors. P-3: Kombination der beiden vorigen Varianten. P-4: Verwendung eines All-Aspect-Suchkopfs ähnlich dem der AIM-9L. P-5: Verbesserung der P-4 mit erhöhter Unempfindlichkeit gegenüber IR-Störmaßnahmen. Die AIM-9P war ursprünglich als leistungsreduzierte Exportvariante zur Ergänzung der AIM-9L konzipiert worden, wurde jedoch auf Grund ihrer vergleichsweise geringeren Kosten und der Möglichkeit, bereits vorhandene AIM-9J/N aufzurüsten auch von der US-Luftwaffe in größeren Stückzahlen geordert.

 

 

P-4 is all aspect heat seeking following this entry...Thought we are always speaking about the most actual models with These Missiles.


Edited by FSKRipper

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9P is tail aspect only. 9M is all aspect. M is the better missile. P is a cheap export weapon.

 

Tried it also with a 9m. The first one was a hope. No guidance after launch of the second 9m. When looking at the Tacview tracks I get the feeling that ED managed the Rmin not by the warhead (since proofed above, a 9P exploded much earlier) but by guidance algorithms maybe.

dogfight3.trk

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The track makes me think it's just a case of not enough lead. Rmin results because of missile maneuverability and set flight time to clear the aircraft, not warhead.

AIM-9M.trk

AIM-9M 2.trk

F-15 vs 2 MiG-23.trk

Awaiting: DCS F-15C

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Like Exorcet said, Rmin is not just a function of warhead arming, but also safe-distance to travel from the aircraft before maneuvering, seeker tracking capability and target angle rate, ability of the missile to pull enough g's for the intercept etc.

 

When you shoot in bad parameters, you basically defeat the guidance of your missile.

 

Looking at your last tacview, you're shooting way too close form a less-than-perfect aspect. This means by the time the missile begins to guide (safe separation from aircraft), it can no longer turn hard enough to keep up with the seeker slew rate, or the target may already be past the seeker gimbals.

 

Rmin does not mean Rmin under all circumstances. Rmin is like Rmax (or more specifically Raero): It is the minimum range under perfect circumstances. Typical sidewinder shots with less-than-perfect geometry are usually not done at less than 4000' range AT LAUNCH, this is about 0.6-0.7nm. I'd reccomend 1.0-1.5nm and no closer for any aspect beyond sixty degrees, and if you can, with lead (with lead you can get closer).

 

Tried it also with a 9m. The first one was a hope. No guidance after launch of the second 9m. When looking at the Tacview tracks I get the feeling that ED managed the Rmin not by the warhead (since proofed above, a 9P exploded much earlier) but by guidance algorithms maybe.

Edited by GGTharos

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I've had more success with the aim-9 when the seeker was slaved to a radar lock. Should this make a difference? I know the target will know it is locked but it won't know a missile has been fired unless it detects it visually. Then again if it is being locked you think the target would be looking for a missile being fired from that direction and already be taking evasive measures. I don't really know why I would have more success slaving the seeker to a radar lock than surprising the target by using just boresight or scan modes without radar.


Edited by 3Sheets2theWind

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