For those who have issues with Magnetic break, Trimmer and Force Feedback

The most important thing to do is :

1) If you have a NON-FORCE FEEDBACK joystick, please UNCHECK Options/Misc/Force feedback

2) If you have a FORCE FEEDBACK joystick, please CHECK this option for the force feedback to work. Then you can change some other options.

- in Options/Commands/FFB setting, FFB is set as following for MS FFB2 : Swap axis checked, invert X unchecked, invert Y unchecked

- in Options/Special/SA342, FFB pitch and roll curves, these new curves allow user to define curves as usual but for FFB only

Thanks.

Edited to have the post more clear, and remove typos.

I think this needs to be sticky ?

I have to try this.. will let you know my results :) *edit* you guys rock for making me delve deeper into this.

So, for the first time ever I feel like I'm getting a sense of the trim system in the Gazelle, and I'm starting to see maybe I was confused in it's operation.

I'm not a real heli pilot and I have no idea how they operate irl. My initial confusion with how the trim system was working with FFB came from my experiences in the Ka-50, and a few brief experiences with the Huey.

To make an analogy short - personally, and I could be wrong on on this - but when pressing trim button in either Ka-50 or Huey, stick stays put where you release it. I.E. Trim causes helicopter to chase the stick.

Just playing around in the Gazelle tonight when you press trim the aircraft holds the position according to the ADI or orientation of the aircraft when you press/release the trim button rather than keep the position of the stick, and the stick moves to hold the position of the aircraft. I.E. the stick chases the aircraft.

So - Ka-50 and Huey - the aircraft chases the cyclic,

and for the Gazelle - the cyclic chases the aircraft.

I'm not knowledged enough to say anything's wrong with that.. and flying the gazelle just got a ton easier for me personally, although I'm still no master. And I might even be misinterpreting the other helicopters force trim systems.

Using msffb2, "Swap axis" checked, invert x/y unchecked.

So if like me, you were yanking your stick to the right, pressing the trim button and wondering why your stick went somewhere to the left, it's because trim sets the aircraft's orientation, not the stick position.

@Headwarp:

You observations are correct. The autopilot does chase the additude not the stick in the gazelle, so the magnetic trim always needs a functioning AP to work at all.

There is more to it will hopefully discuss with Pat on the weekend but for now, yes that is the one function that we implemented into the helicopter and that is how the magnetic trim works in the french Gazelle.

Interesting, I have to experiment with this in mind a bit more.

But at least from just reading about this, I get the feeling that this seems to make a lot of sense for trimming using the trim hat. But I am unsure, if trimming with the magnetic trim should work the same way. Would not lead this to discrepancies between cyclic position and actual helo attitude that the AP tries to maintain? Maybe this is what feels so odd sometimes?

And on another note: depressing the magnetic trim should remove the forces from the stick and if released, the forces should be re-applied at the new position. Or am I wrong? Because currently it does not work like that which makes it very hard (litterally) to use.

Interesting, I have to experiment with this in mind a bit more.

 

But at least from just reading about this, I get the feeling that this seems to make a lot of sense for trimming using the trim hat. But I am unsure, if trimming with the magnetic trim should work the same way. Would not lead this to discrepancies between cyclic position and actual helo attitude that the AP tries to maintain? Maybe this is what feels so odd sometimes?

 

And on another note: depressing the magnetic trim should remove the forces from the stick and if released, the forces should be re-applied at the new position. Or am I wrong? Because currently it does not work like that which makes it very hard (litterally) to use.

If you take your hands off your stick while adjusting trim using the hat, you'll notice your FFB stick actually moves like it would in many fixed wing aircraft, just ever so slightly which makes it ideal for slight adjustments. So no it shouldn't lead to any discrepancies.

As far as losing spring forces when holding the trim button like it does in the Ka-50 - good question. Not much info on the trim system in the flight manual, perhaps that deserves a thread of it's own by someone who intimately understands how the magnetic brake, trim, and AP functions work from both a hands on and mechanical perspective.

I think this particular thread has served it's purpose.. confirming that FFB is indeed working in the Gazelle, and those of us who thought otherwise were just confused on how the Trim system worked.

It's still a little confusing.. because when on the ground with engine running, if you hit the trim button it just holds the stick position.. but once you're up in the air I'm guessing autopilot is taking over. hehe.. I do feel some more information on how trim/AP work and what they're doing inside the helicopter would be some worthy information.

Can highly recommend FFB users to utilize the simFFB program.

- Deadzones, curves and saturation changes messes up the DCS FFB, and even with the Gazelle option for curves, curves are flat out painful to use for precision control in a heli (at least for me).

- Since simFFB operates outside of DCS, you can change the joystick settings all you want without messing up trimming. This is what I'm currently using for the Gazelle (I should probably add a small deadzone too) since 99% of the time you wont even yank the stick to its extremes, so why waste half the joystick range on it.

- Also using a stick extension for the Sidewinder FFB2, and using simFFB to max out the centering and damping force to make up for it works great.

- Very reliable. Got frustrated after countless times that the FFB via DCS would go slack and require a trimmer reset, suddenly invert the position (despite having swapped axis already), and so on.

The negative would be that you only want to use it for helis (for example you'd lose the force/shake/stall effects in WWII aircraft), and that it wont alter its own position if you use the trim hat (personally I dont).

Can highly recommend FFB users to utilize the simFFB program.

 

- Deadzones, curves and saturation changes messes up the DCS FFB, and even with the Gazelle option for curves, curves are flat out painful to use for precision control in a heli (at least for me).

- Since simFFB operates outside of DCS, you can change the joystick settings all you want without messing up trimming. This is what I'm currently using for the Gazelle (I should probably add a small deadzone too) since 99% of the time you wont even yank the stick to its extremes, so why waste half the joystick range on it.

 

- Also using a stick extension for the Sidewinder FFB2, and using simFFB to max out the centering and damping force to make up for it works great.

- Very reliable. Got frustrated after countless times that the FFB via DCS would go slack and require a trimmer reset, suddenly invert the position (despite having swapped axis already), and so on.

 

The negative would be that you only want to use it for helis (for example you'd lose the force/shake/stall effects in WWII aircraft), and that it wont alter its own position if you use the trim hat (personally I dont).

Heh DCS heli's are what made me buy a FFB stick in the first place because I wanted to experience the force trim systems.

The gazelle isn't that bad with FFB curves set to 5 or 10, and then leaving everything at default in the axis control menu other than FFtune Swap Axis checked if msffb2. It does seem like it creates a bit of a deadzone on the stick but I've managed to get used to it. Having gotten used to how the Force trim operates in the gazelle, She's actually pretty enjoyable to fly.

Personally I'd just plug in a non-ffb stick if I didin't want FFB effects.. but force trim is what made me bite the bullet and snag a couple off Ebay. The stick suddenly inverting position is and already has been explained as what it is in the Gazelle, the stick moving to the orientation of the helicopter when you release the trim button, basically engaging autopilot to hold that orientation.

In other words set trim based on what the artificial horizon is showing not based on the location of the cyclic.

I set the controls as said, using MSFFB2. What I can see is that with a custom FFB curve in the special option menù > 10 (i.e. 50, like the axis curve in my setup) the "virtual stick" does follow the hardware stick in movement and locking only when I'm on ground.

When I took of, the virtual stick doesn't move and the helo does not move cyclic. What am I doing wrong?

thanks

Hi

the issue I'm having with my G940 is pressing DEB EFF on the cyclic does not relieve stick pressure and so pilot does not get full authority of the aircraft. Its like I'm flying with a permanent spring stick although holding the trimmer does seem to effect the AP channel indicators.

Is this correct mode of operation?

You need 100% FFB setting in logitech software and no curves set anywhere for the stick to hold correctly in the the three other heli modules (due to the stick having a sloppy centre and its own weight tends to pull it forward off centre if its at all slack.) As bove pressing DEB EFF does not releive the 100% pressure. Not what I expect and not met anyone yet who knows how the real Gazelle works in this respect. Can anyone enlighten me?

Also the FFB curve settings in the special menu only seems to add massive amounts of dead zone to my control input? Very weird guys.

And... My stick jumps about unpredicably when releasing the trimmer. (similar to if you set curves in the Ka-50... no no no)

Sorry still not feeling it yet.

the manual says "The magnetic brake maintains the cyclic in a defined position. Pressing the magnetic brake button at the pilot stick will define a new position to hold."

Not whats happening and contrary to borchi is saying above. How are the rotor head, cyclic and collective mechanically connected and where and how do the gyro and AP come into play and get authority over pilot input? How does pilot override gyro and AP input? What is defining the position to hold?

Seems counter intuitive under pressure situations to have to think about what the helicopter internals "think" is the airacrafts current attitude. I much prefer the rotor head following my cyclic and not a whacked out gyro.

It seem an inherently dangerous design compared to the other heli modules we have.

If as a g940 owner with some spare time I can be of assitance please call on me.

Flight model seems improved, heli slips down the rotor plane now in a roll instead of rocketing up perpendicular to it. Still feels wrong in a vertical dive, even with the DEB EFF depressed the AP want authority over the nose pitch and prevents the full dive. It works better with the AP totally off. How does the pilot get FULL authority without resorting to turning master switches off?

cheers Dun

see also here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=196099 & https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=202962