Hotas Warthog or Saitek X65F Pro?

Hi Guys,

I am interested in one of those Hotas. In my opinion these two are the best for those sims at this moment.

Which one should I consider?

For black shark I am using an old ms ffb stick. Is it advisable to chance this one for one of the two mentioned above?

:joystick:

The main difference of this two HOTAS is the "FORCE SENSING" of the X65.

This is absolutly a matter of taste.

Maybe you should test this Sticks in the Shop first.

The main difference of this two HOTAS is the "FORCE SENSING" of the X65.

ah?! I did not think about that! Thanks a lot!

Before taking a decision i would make 2 thing:

Wait for the rat labs reports until after christmass (if possible to postpone buy for 2 month) to see the evolution of warpig.

and

Get the beta of the A10, give it a real try, if you fall in love, there s no question about it, you WILL want the warthog.

For helos, I would really not want an FS stick!

I've got my Warthog on preorder, so I might be a little biased... Buuuut, WARTHOG WARTHOG WARTHOG!

Yes, the most obvious difference is the fact the saitek has force sensing. If you play BS and IL2, and others I would suggest the WH, but if you only play lomac-kind-of simulations, go for the x-65f. But it's all down to preference.

Thanks guys. Still don´t no which one to choose so need to do some further investment. I´m wondering if an x65f is good for black shark. Will the build quality of warthog be better then the cougar?

I´m wondering if an x65f is good for black shark. Will the build quality of warthog be better then the cougar?

First question: No.

Second question: yes. ;)

Flying the black shark (and generally helis) is done with a long moving stick, the cyclic. Heli pilots fly more on cyclic position than force. About the same holds for WW2 aircraft.

Only some modern jets have a force sensing stick. It's quite a different experience and more suited for pulling a constant amount of g's. Pulling g's is not your priority in the shark however. So for WWII, general aviation, helis and of course A-10 go with the Warthog.

For F-16 and similar go with force sensing (FSSB modded Cougar would be my choice!).

For build quality of the Warthog in comparison with the Cougar, read this review.

Yeah don t mistake FORCE sensing with Feedback force. Heli demand feedback force not force sensing this is an easy to fall on mistake.

thanks guys. yeh I know the difference between force sensing and force feedback. Thanks for the link with the very good review of the warthog.

I´ve got a quite diverse taste regarding aeroplanes, and thus choosing between these contenders has become almost too overwhelming.

I´m flying currently only FSX planes, from single engine props, helos, jet heavies to VRS SuperBug.

Which one would you recommend me, disconsidering the fact I´m probably going to buy the DCS A-10C soon?

The best thing you can do if able its go to a shop and put your hands on each of them.

Then the WT has sooo many praisings thats i don t know, even i ordered it before i was thinking cause i fear price will rice, theres already near 2000 of them on customers hands.

I have the X65F. Really enjoy the force-sensing. I miss the construction quality of the Warthog but the X-65F has two rotaries while the Warthog has none. Warthog is better for DCS: A-10, but the X65F is a more versatile stick all around IMO.

The price is always a big factor. I could order the X-65 for 260€ delivered from abroad, whereas the WT costs 430€ at the local shop. :doh: But these sticks ought to last at least over a decade, so the price difference shouldn´t be such a large factor in the end.

The rotary switches are a nice feature, although not absolutely necessary for my needs.

Regarding the throttle units, I´ve tried to find proper facts about Saitek's detents. As far as I´ve understood, WT´s throttle has a bit better mechanical feel. Do you have to lift Saitek´s throttle levers in order to bring them past idle detent?

Furthermore, I noticed this in the SimHQ's WT review:

The throttle axes feature a fixed idle detent (below which there is no throttle electrical response)...

Warthog is better for DCS: A-10, but the X65F is a more versatile stick all around IMO.

Agree to disagree, IMHO. :)

I think the HW (WH, WT, TH, TW whatever abbreviations PPL pref) is the most versatile stick of all time. The potential is virtually limitless for programming.

I'm mainly saying "versatile" due to the variety of control types. The X-65F has two rotaries with Z-axis, an analog ministick (which admittedly cannot be mapped to bindable axes :( ), and a pinky wheel. Of course, no airplane will use all these control types, but for any given game, it's possible to find a decent subset of the X-65F's many controls that at least sort of matches the real-life HOTAS.

That being said, if I had $400 to spend as I please I would be pretty hard-pressed to make a decision one way or another.

I do miss the dual-stage trigger and the quality feel and anodized metal of my Cougar, but I do NOT miss its handling. I also find the layout of the X65F's controls to be ergonomically poor; that's one thing the F-16 TQS has that cannot be beat. I am, however, now 100% sold on force-sensing; it has made me a much better formation flyer.

(Virtual Thunderbirds pilots notwithstanding. :P )

Agree to disagree, IMHO. :)

 

I think the HW (WH, WT, TH, TW whatever abbreviations PPL pref) is the most versatile stick of all time. The potential is virtually limitless for programming.

I agree, but at the moment there´s still need for a separate throttle quadrant, if you wanted use reverse thrust with airliners, right?

Warthog´s switches numerous switches could still be used, though.

The X65 throttle is different then the WartHog's. No lock outs, indents at 10% idle and 90% AB. A hard push/pull will go right through them, a deliberate push/pull and you'll easily feel the bump.

Been some comments about the stiffness of the X65 throttle, but I'm either becoming used to it or it has become easier. Probably a little bit of both.

Have also been reports of the joystick axis, drifting to the left. Most people with the problem use the deadzone adjustment. My controller doesn't have that problem, in either prop or jet sims. Many hot and cold on force sensing, but I had no problem, I believe its more of a muscle memory thing. The force sensing is fully adjustable (4 presets for the lazy, i.e. me).

You certainly will be able to do more with the TM and CH software for programing options. But if you do most of your assignments through the sims configure screen... Plenty of user support for both TM and CH. CH's web site is one of the best (that both both Saitek and TM could learn from).

But like most things, some one in the community has had the same problem, or figured out a fix.

I have both a CH setup and the X65. I'll wait until the dust has settled before adding a third option to my collection. The X65 was $400 at release, and is now selling for around $330. The lowest I've seen the Warthog is $416, and I think that will drop once the feeding frenzy is over.

I'm pleased with my X65. Not the controller for everyone, but another good choice.

and.... your mileage may vary :)

I am, however, now 100% sold on force-sensing; it has made me a much better formation flyer.

 

(Virtual Thunderbirds pilots notwithstanding. :P )

Anyone can do it!...... with enough practice! ;)

I went from using an NXT modded Cougar to the FSSB Cougar. Loved both of them for different reasons, but stuck with the FSSB and burned through a few of them (that I had to return/replace). Now I'm about to retire that FSSB R2 with Hall Sensors in the TQS and rudder pedals to make room for the HOTAS Warthog...

I do think the HW is the best thing that's come out for formation flying... well, uhm... ever! Sure there will be a few minor kinks, but this thing is amazing out of the box and even more precise than anything I've had in the past.

Just my2c, and I've been sold on force sensor mods for years too, just like you are Stretch!

i had the same dilemma myself untill today. I ordered the warthog. my reasons is IL 2, black shark, upcoming storm of war and A-10C. i have used saitek for years, all models since X35. nice sticks but they wear out in 2 years. so looking at the pricerange of the WH and X65 i went for quality this time. WH costs more but lasts for 5+ years and force sensing won't "feel" right for me when i fly WWII planes or BS. I know X65 has better quality than the older model but some reviews has pointet out the "plastic" feel to it.

I am, however, now 100% sold on force-sensing; it has made me a much better formation flyer.

To each their own. I made a force-mod Cougar right after AF came out. Loved every minute I flew with it, including the time I've been flying with the VTB.

However, I had some instability and tried every way to dial it back...higher pressure, lower pressure, dead zones, curves...but no way I could avoid making unintentional inputs while still having the stick sensitive enough to fly. No way people could comfortably fly off my wing with collisions enabled.

To call switching to the WH "night and day" would be an insult to night. And day.

Obviously it varies by pilot. LD and Blaze can fly an FSSB smoother than I could ever hope to. (Haven't really followed anyone else around much). I suppose it's possible...maybe even likely...that my aging FCC mod was contributing to my twitchiness. It did have a lot of hours on it. I still love it and don't plan to sell it. :D

My personal opinion - no way would I ever use a twist-stick rudder. At least if it's force sensing, though, it can be bypassed.

I was just going to post this exact same thread, I also use a MSFFB2 stick and have it paired with a X52 pro throttle, the throttle is getting on for 3 years old now, the slider and rotaries are spiking and it's time for a change (of throttle at least). I fly BS and FSX mainly atm, but i'm going to buy DCS A-10 and SoW.

I know when SoW comes out that it will more than likely become my main sim and there lies the problem for me, i'm so used to using the rotaries on my X-52 for trimming, I really don't know how that's going to transfer to the hog. Has anyone tried the hog with IL2? are you using the hat switch for trimming? How does that feel? The hog would be my first choice stick only for the fact it's lacking these rotarys.

I love the look of the X-65F throttle and stick, I don't think i'll like the force sensing side of things though. I have no retailers anywhere near me where I can try these sticks out, I have to go on opinions and reviews to make my mind up.

I have had my cursor hovering over the 'place your order' tab in Amazon for the last week, I just can't decide.

If the Hog had a rotary ot two I would buy it in a heartbeat, if the X-65F wasn't force sensing i'd buy it in a heartbeat.

Is there anyone else with this dilemma? I know it's doing my head in. Have I any other alternatives?

The X65 throttle is different then the WartHog's. No lock outs, indents at 10% idle and 90% AB. A hard push/pull will go right through them, a deliberate push/pull and you'll easily feel the bump.

Could you describe how noticeable the bumps are? For example, do you require approx. 50% more force to move the throttles past the indents compared to normal range of motion?

I was just going to post this exact same thread, I also use a MSFFB2 stick and have it paired with a X52 pro throttle..

 

If the Hog had a rotary ot two I would buy it in a heartbeat, if the X-65F wasn't force sensing i'd buy it in a heartbeat.

 

Is there anyone else with this dilemma? I know it's doing my head in. Have I any other alternatives?

I´m in similiar situation than you. Although the throttles might convince me to buy the X65.

I´ve also used FFB2, but with X36 throttle.

The "bump"s going through idle and AB would be nowhere near an additional 50%. When moving from total off to idle, you'll feel the movement drop into the idle indent, same for AB expect more distinct (this could be because of the farther travel to get to it). Again a firm movement of the throttle in either direction and your go right through both.

The force sensing stick surely isn't for everyone. I had little trouble adapting to it. A test would be the ideal situation for anyone thinking of buying one, second best would be purchase from a supplier that doesn't charge restocking fees. Which are few and far between. That the stick points you in the direction you want to go, accurately , force sensing or other, is the most important thing.

I'm actually in the same position and can't decide whether I should get the X65 or TM Warthog :>

Not sure whether I'd feel comfortable with a non moving, force sensing stick or can't actually fathom how it'd feel.