JNelson Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 Hi, I was looking into making a plane for DCS, however said aircraft is a tail dragger, is this possible with the SFM? So I don't waste my time. Thanks Community A-4E-C
theGozr Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 SFM :( .. get the plane going and get help for AFM and it will be great! Fly it like you stole it..
JNelson Posted February 18, 2014 Author Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) SFM :( .. get the plane going and get help for AFM and it will be great! When you say get the plane going do you mean, get all the textures and models sorted? What else might be included in that? I was considering making a Tiger Moth or Stampe (Belgium Equivilent, Has tail wheel) since I work with them. Edited February 18, 2014 by JNelson Community A-4E-C
joey45 Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 No the SFM is only modeled for Tri gear. The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance. "Me, the 13th Duke of Wybourne, here on the ED forums at 3 'o' clock in the morning, with my reputation. Are they mad.." https://ko-fi.com/joey45
JNelson Posted February 18, 2014 Author Posted February 18, 2014 No the SFM is only modeled for Tri gear. So how would one go about making a model with trike gear? Community A-4E-C
joey45 Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 As in nose gear. AFM isn't designed for tail draggers. But as Gozr said, get the model in to the game and seek healp with the AFM. The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance. "Me, the 13th Duke of Wybourne, here on the ED forums at 3 'o' clock in the morning, with my reputation. Are they mad.." https://ko-fi.com/joey45
VincentLaw Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 AFM currently allows for up to 3 wheels. You may be able to get up to 4 wheels with SFM. It shouldn't matter if you put the third wheel in the front or back. I'm not sure if that would invert steering with the SFM though, It would be simple enough to test. I will check when I get a chance. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Exorcet Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 I don't know much about modeling aircraft in DCS, but even if SFM doesn't support tail dragging, couldn't you make the model look correct, but use tricycle gear? SFM ground handling isn't realistic anyway. Awaiting: DCS F-15C Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files
JNelson Posted February 18, 2014 Author Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) I don't know much about modeling aircraft in DCS, but even if SFM doesn't support tail dragging, couldn't you make the model look correct, but use tricycle gear? SFM ground handling isn't realistic anyway. Ah but it is the moments that need to be taken into account because on takeoff the force of the elevators creates a moment lifting the tail around the pivot of the main gear, so it requires AFM. I was speaking to someone they said you can't implement AFM in mods because you need the correct SDK which only Devs get. This is seeming more and more unlikely. On the plus side moar Stampe pictures: Tiger Moth (Should It be completed it will be completed with this skin) Edited February 18, 2014 by JNelson Community A-4E-C
Exorcet Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 I figured the scripted takeoff could get around that, even if the result ended up being ugly. The AI uses an even more basic SFM, but they still manage P-51's. Awaiting: DCS F-15C Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files
VincentLaw Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) Kind of glitchy, but here is an example of a SFM airplane with the nose wheel in the back. You won't really notice as long as you stick to 3 point takeoffs and landings. ED actually already did that with the AI FW-190, but I cobbled together a flyable version with the Su-25T cockpit. Edit: My forum upload seems to have failed. Have a dropbox link instead. https://www.dropbox.com/s/7sevmm56lenypv8/TailDraggerTest.zip Edited February 19, 2014 by VincentLaw [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
SilentEagle Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) AFM currently allows for up to 3 wheels. You may be able to get up to 4 wheels with SFM. It shouldn't matter if you put the third wheel in the front or back. I'm not sure if that would invert steering with the SFM though, It would be simple enough to test. I will check when I get a chance. AFM is not limited to 3 wheels. Looking at the AFM API include file, it has allowance for 10 different wheel definitions. Another thing to keep in mind is the hard lower limit on airspeed with SFM aircraft. No matter how much lift you give an SFM, it will stall at ~60 knots, so modeling a slow tail dragger may not be possible. Edited February 20, 2014 by SilentEagle
JNelson Posted February 20, 2014 Author Posted February 20, 2014 AFM is not limited to 3 wheels. Looking at the AFM API include file, it has allowance for 10 different wheel definitions. Another thing to keep in mind is the hard lower limit on airspeed with SFM aircraft. No matter how much lift you give an SFM, it will stall at ~60 knots, so modeling a slow tail dragger may not be possible. That's a shame the Stampe, has a takeoff speed of 35 kts and I think it stalls around 30 kts Community A-4E-C
jib Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 I love Tiger Moths. A friend of mine used to own one and he would takeoff form a grass field near his house and take people up and do loop the loops and scare the bejeebers out of them. It was to bad when he rented it to a film company for a stunt and the stunt pilot crashed into a barbed wire fence and totally trashed the plane Mods I use: KA-50 JTAC - Better Fire and Smoke - Unchain Rudder from trim KA50 - Sim FFB for G940 - Beczl Rocket Pods Updated! Processor: Intel Q6600 @ 3.00GHz GPU: GeForce MSI RTX 2060 6GB RAM: Crucial 8GB DDR2 HDD: 1TBGB Crucial SSD OS: Windows 10, 64-bit Peripherals: Logitech G940 Hotas, TrackiR 5, Voice Activated commands , Sharkoon 5.1 headset. ,Touch Control for iPad, JoyToKey
JNelson Posted February 20, 2014 Author Posted February 20, 2014 I love Tiger Moths. A friend of mine used to own one and he would takeoff form a grass field near his house and take people up and do loop the loops and scare the bejeebers out of them. It was to bad when he rented it to a film company for a stunt and the stunt pilot crashed into a barbed wire fence and totally trashed the plane Yea I work for a company who does air experience flights in the Stampe, hence why I wanted to make one. They have 3. Community A-4E-C
RagnarDa Posted February 20, 2014 Posted February 20, 2014 I know that this is very much possible with what is currently in the open part of the EFM/AFM-API. You can have up to 10 gears all individually steerable and brake-able (and breakable!), and 10 engines, both jets and propellers. Have a look at CptSmileys F-16 for a demo. The problem is the amount of development work needed and, I think, eventually financing. How popular would WWI airplanes be in DCS:World? DCS AJS37 HACKERMAN There will always be bugs. If everything is a priority nothing is.
JNelson Posted February 20, 2014 Author Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) I know that this is very much possible with what is currently in the open part of the EFM/AFM-API. You can have up to 10 gears all individually steerable and brake-able (and breakable!), and 10 engines, both jets and propellers. Have a look at CptSmileys F-16 for a demo. The problem is the amount of development work needed and, I think, eventually financing. How popular would WWI airplanes be in DCS:World? Blasphemy, Thanks for the comment but the Tiger Moth and the Stampe are WWII trainer aircraft the Stampe being modeled off the Tiger Moth, the Stampe has a tail wheel though and handles nicer. Had a look at the F16, you suggested do you think that It would be close to >5000 lines of code with a simple bi plane which has no flaps or slats or anything other than 4 alerions two elevators and 1 rudder, and an engine. Edited February 20, 2014 by JNelson Community A-4E-C
RagnarDa Posted February 21, 2014 Posted February 21, 2014 WWII sorry :) Didn't actually know... The thing is, I have had an idea baking in the back of my head for a while. What about a common open source flight model, maybe based on JSBSim, that are developed and maintained by the community? You could probably sell individual implementation of specific aircraft with aerodynamic data and 3d models and systems while keeping the base open and continually developed? I think there are more people able to do a decent visual 3d model than there are people that would be willing to code a flight model from the ground up. Those that can/are willing are quickly tied up in their own projects and understandably unwilling to work on anything else. There are also quite a few good 3d models out there ready to be integrated into DCS but few people wants to fly them with the SFM and the FC3-cockpits. Your thoughts? DCS AJS37 HACKERMAN There will always be bugs. If everything is a priority nothing is.
Pman Posted February 21, 2014 Posted February 21, 2014 I have quite alot of experience in this at the moment with the work I have been doing on the Corsair, Spitfires, Bf109's etc that we have been doing for The Great War Birds Historic Flight It is possible to do a tail dragger in SFM, but you will not get the tail rotation on the take off roll and they are only landable with a perfect 3 point landing. With AFM you can either start doing it yourself if you have experience in aerodynamics and coding or get someone to help you. Although in my experience the people with the afm skills want the project to be a release module so there is $$$ in it. You can manipulate the FM's (AFM or SFM) with some work, and if landing/take off isnt that important you will be able to do it in SFM. Pman
Pman Posted February 21, 2014 Posted February 21, 2014 Blasphemy, Thanks for the comment but the Tiger Moth and the Stampe are WWII trainer aircraft the Stampe being modeled off the Tiger Moth, the Stampe has a tail wheel though and handles nicer. Had a look at the F16, you suggested do you think that It would be close to >5000 lines of code with a simple bi plane which has no flaps or slats or anything other than 4 alerions two elevators and 1 rudder, and an engine. Problem is that its not that simple, With the way the AFM works you need aerodynamic co-efficents to get anything right, and although your correct with no flaps etc it is simpler, but it is by no means simple Pete
SilentEagle Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 Problem is that its not that simple, With the way the AFM works you need aerodynamic co-efficents to get anything right, and although your correct with no flaps etc it is simpler, but it is by no means simple Pete How many lines of code it takes isn't really a good gauge of how complex an aircraft is. It is a better estimate of a how complex the flight model is. However, a decent flight model could be written for that aircraft in a couple thousand lines. Also, I don't know about other AFM devs, but I'd love to make FMs for other aircraft, if only I had 48 hours in a day. It has nothing to do with money for me, but I am already tied up full time working on one AFM as it is. To make an AFM is not difficult. To make it react perfectly in all flight regimes and scenarios is a monumental task.
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