Beyond Visual Range Struggles

[GGTharos]

Yes/No/Sortof.

 

I was referring more to measuring maneuverability, not specific maneuvers or tactics. We tend to focus on turn rates and TWR and all the pretty graphs in the aircraft manuals, but these are all things that tell you what happens in a given instant, or describe your flight envelope but they don't really tell you how the plane will fight. Don't get me wrong, they're important, they're all part of the big picture.

 

As a very contrived and simple example, let's take a simple instantaneous rate turn: You're at 400kt, you haul stick at 9g, squishing your poor virtual pilot into his seat. A certain time later, you're no longer able to pull 9g and you're at 300kt. How long before you can repeat this maneuver again? (What if you slow down to 150kt? At that speed perhaps you're hosed as you're way out of optimal fighting speed :P )

 

Like I said, this is a very, very simple example.

 

And that's the basic advantage of the eagle within a certain flight envelope: If you do things right, you can pull more g/degrees in a given time frame than another aircraft.

 

If you do it wrong, you can still pull more g, but the other guy will just be hanging out comfortably inside your turn circle - this is the same concept as corner speed.

 

 

If you are looking for an Eagle vs Flanker thing, the answer is (Sort of, I'm no expert so take everything I say with a grain of salt) ... the Eagle can go maneuver-to maneuver faster, the Flanker can turn harder below a certain speed. In this case, getting into a simple turning fight with a flanker (a classic 2 circle where you're both on opposite sides of the circle) requires significant patience on the part of the eagle pilot to create opportunities, but if you do things right and you don't let the flanker pilot upset you (which he can do easily) then the eagle will tend to have a win. But, this is in a perfect laboratory environment. In the middle of some fight on some server, your SA counts for more, since you can have people entering the arena without you knowing, opposing numbers may not be equal, etc.

 

And I'm not even talking about missiles :) Once missiles come into play, the flanker and Mig certainly have an advantage with the R-73 and HMS - so, I won't go there. The study of maneuverability is interesting when missiles are in play, but we stick to guns because that exercises the basics that are the foundation for everything that comes after guns.

 

Do You mean the thrust-to-weight-ratio-thing and not just turning but trading speed for altitude (high jo-jo) and that sort of dogfigting theory? That would interest me too what are the basic advantages of the eagle in a dogfight?

Edited May 7, 2014 by GGTharos

[GGTharos]

Do you know what the RL performance of any given missile is? :)

 

So a quick question then? Will the missles be adjusted to match RL performance? From all of this discussion its difficult to really know what is the 'official' stance on the subject beyond missles are WIP. The reason I ask is that Im a recent F15C driver (1.2.8 ) and I have no idea how the AMRAAMS behaved in previous versions. Did they behave more according to what we know of their RL specs?

[Mandrake5]

So a quick question then? Will the missles be adjusted to match RL performance? From all of this discussion its difficult to really know what is the 'official' stance on the subject beyond missles are WIP. The reason I ask is that Im a recent F15C driver (1.2.8 ) and I have no idea how the AMRAAMS behaved in previous versions. Did they behave more according to what we know of their RL specs?

 

 

In theory, yes, however they've been saying the missiles are WIP ever since AFM was introduced (over a year ago). It seems the complexity of the AFM means adjustments are extremely difficult, but personally I can only assume (due to the elapsed time and lack of apparent progress) that there is either no internal agreement on the specific missile changes needed (usually masked by the disclaimer that nobody knows the RL missile performances) or ED has simply been deploying its resources elsewhere (probably EDGE/Nevada, and bringing other aircraft up to date with the AFM).

 

The result? Over a year of very lop-sided combat in which the F15, the world's pre-eminent air superiority fighter carrying the most technologically advanced MRM's in the sim, has been stripped of its long reach and forced into the role of dogfighting target drone for the Su27/Mig29. Frustratingly, there seems to be little (zero) sign of this being addressed.....but hey on the bright side, I guess we're getting lots of time to study and practise guns-only ACM offline...

 

I'm now waiting for my Oculus Rift DK2 to arrive, then I might venture back online, hoping (praying) that the increased situational awareness gives me a few more minutes alive-time against those HMS/R73/R27ETs...

[Oberst Zeisig]

@ GG

 

Yes I was also speaking only about dogfight with guns to just get the basics in flight dynamics.

 

So to my understanding the Flanker has basically a bigger turn rate (esp. at low speed) so to say degrees per second but the Eagle has more power, say a bigger energy recource and due to that can stand max-g-pulling longer or needs shorter time to recover speed for the next maneuver.

 

And @ Blaze

 

Yes as far as I know the eagle is supposed to be better at max-g and sustained-g values at speeds above 400 kts. But isn't also the turn radius crucial so that You can not only turn fast but also have the geometrical advantage to stay inside the enemy turn circle and thus just have the geometrical ability to point the nose at the enemy?

[TAW_Blaze]

No, you don't need a smaller turn radius in order to win. But if you do it wrong you'll lose to a guy that has smaller turn radius. If you want to make a smaller circle you have to get slower eventually, at high speed you simply can't turn much better than I do because of high G. In that case, if I can stay faster and despite you being inside my circle I'll be able to beat you in the vertical if the speed differential is there. Highly theoretical but I've seen it work although I have a really hard time executing something like this in an actual fight.

 

On the missiles topic, don't forget that it's not just the AFM and their kinematic performance. In the vast majority of fights they fly an inefficient path or just downright go full retard.

Edited May 7, 2014 by <Blaze>

[GGTharos]

You asked a baited question. As for what's going to be done with the missiles, that's hard to know right now.

 

Why am I getting a baited question instead of a straight answer? Obviously I dont know the RL performance of any given missle, I can quote your own words back at you from a post a few pages back though.

 

So my question still stands, will the misslle and all its support systems be modeled to behave this way in the game at all? And how has the AIM120C behaved in versions previous to 1.2.8?

[GGTharos]

Right, the important thing is that all of this stuff must be executed in an optimal manner. Eg. if you do a 180 but you do it with ITR from 350kts to 150kts, it takes you ages and eons to get back up to 350kts. If on the other hand you moderate your pull so you only burn 50kts in the turn, your actual turn rate might be a bit slower, but your overall maneuver could end up being 10-20 seconds faster.

 

@ GG

 

Yes I was also speaking only about dogfight with guns to just get the basics in flight dynamics.

 

So to my understanding the Flanker has basically a bigger turn rate (esp. at low speed) so to say degrees per second but the Eagle has more power, say a bigger energy recource and due to that can stand max-g-pulling longer or needs shorter time to recover speed for the next maneuver.

[blkspade]

Even with the 120 being crap and causing many engagements to degrade to a WVR fight, you can still beat the Su/MiG more often than not when this occurs in the Eagle. There are obviously people making the mistake of not carrying sidewinders in favor of 8 120s. The Eagle AFM has fixed a major issue I've always had attempting to dogfight vs the Russian drivers in the past. The Aim-9 is more functional now that it has ever been, and the number of times Iv'e lost a fight in the past from not having them with me is maddening.

[Mandrake5]

Even with the 120 being crap and causing many engagements to degrade to a WVR fight, you can still beat the Su/MiG more often than not when this occurs in the Eagle. There are obviously people making the mistake of not carrying sidewinders in favor of 8 120s. The Eagle AFM has fixed a major issue I've always had attempting to dogfight vs the Russian drivers in the past. The Aim-9 is more functional now that it has ever been, and the number of times Iv'e lost a fight in the past from not having them with me is maddening.

 

This is really interesting - would love to know more about how to leverage the Eagle's AFM in a dogfight - are there any particular moves you now like to make (which weren't possible pre-AFM)?

[Svend_Dellepude]

This is really interesting - would love to know more about how to leverage the Eagle's AFM in a dogfight - are there any particular moves you now like to make (which weren't possible pre-AFM)?

 

Precise ones. Controlling G's and speed are now much easier than it has ever been.

[Frostie]

The result? Over a year of very lop-sided combat in which the F15, the world's pre-eminent air superiority fighter carrying the most technologically advanced MRM's in the sim, has been stripped of its long reach and forced into the role of dogfighting target drone for the Su27/Mig29. Frustratingly, there seems to be little (zero) sign of this being addressed.....but hey on the bright side, I guess we're getting lots of time to study and practise guns-only ACM offline...

Sorry but this is your own doing rather than ED's, I don't fly the Eagle as often as most but in a server without datalink and limited mountains I could possibly fly all day and get plenty of kills without loss. To do this i'd have to fight at range to remove the risk of 50/50 (even less) merges to preserve my k/d. Regardless of what you think making kills at range still works well.

 

Now in the same scenario in the Flanker i'd guarantee i'd never get anywhere near as many kills by adopting the same tactics, alternately I get close and toe the fine line of chance with merging.

[blkspade]

Its more of a matter of game dynamics, tied to how the F-15s performance has changed. Previously if you got dragged into ET range in the Eagle, the only way you would ever survive is to flare and maneuver with a reduced throttle setting. Likely if you were aware of the range you'd be out of AB already to deny the shot. Pre-AFM energy retention/recovery was really bad, so any situation where you survived the IR missile barrage left you pretty much helpless in a merge. If you didn't even have Aim9s equipped for that split second you would have a good solution, forget about it. At the same time you couldn't turn and run as you'd be an even easier target for an ET. When you have the occasional Russian driver that can press straight through an Aim-120 shot from 10-12nm, life becomes really difficult.

[Frostie]

Its more of a matter of game dynamics, tied to how the F-15s performance has changed. Previously if you got dragged into ET range in the Eagle, the only way you would ever survive is to flare and maneuver with a reduced throttle setting. Likely if you were aware of the range you'd be out of AB already to deny the shot. Pre-AFM energy retention/recovery was really bad, so any situation where you survived the IR missile barrage left you pretty much helpless in a merge. If you didn't even have Aim9s equipped for that split second you would have a good solution, forget about it. At the same time you couldn't turn and run as you'd be an even easier target for an ET. When you have the occasional Russian driver that can press straight through an Aim-120 shot from 10-12nm, life becomes really difficult.

Well i'd hazard a guess the average Flanker pilot would fair better in a merge than the average Eagle pilot simply down to the tools he has. What you describe is how you handled it and probably quite successfully. Basically the F-15 doesn't want to merge with a Flanker.

 

But at 10-12nm, if I wanted to survive that would be my absolute limit to how close i'd want to get. It may result in no kill and me being chased but i'd rely on superior speed over Flankers and superior fuel over MiG's, plus friendlies.

[blkspade]

Well i'd hazard a guess the average Flanker pilot would fair better in a merge than the average Eagle pilot simply down to the tools he has. What you describe is how you handled it and probably quite successfully. Basically the F-15 doesn't want to merge with a Flanker.

 

But at 10-12nm, if I wanted to survive that would be my absolute limit to how close i'd want to get. It may result in no kill and me being chased but i'd rely on superior speed over Flankers and superior fuel over MiG's, plus friendlies.

 

Exactly. If I fire a 10nm 120 at flanker and he survives without going defensive, I'm at the point of no return (7-8nm). You'd be dead trying to extend here, so might as well go for the merge anyway. With the AFM, you now have enough energy at mil power to stand a chance if you merge. I have certainly been more successful as of late in close quarters, where I can maintain sight on the enemy at least. I find myself wanting to merge more now. I quite intentionally merged with a Mig on the server the other day. For some reason he chose to try to extend rather than dogfight.

[Mandrake5]

Sorry but this is your own doing rather than ED's, I don't fly the Eagle as often as most but in a server without datalink and limited mountains I could possibly fly all day and get plenty of kills without loss. To do this i'd have to fight at range to remove the risk of 50/50 (even less) merges to preserve my k/d. Regardless of what you think making kills at range still works well.

 

Now in the same scenario in the Flanker i'd guarantee i'd never get anywhere near as many kills by adopting the same tactics, alternately I get close and toe the fine line of chance with merging.

 

You're right I have a lot (understatement of the decade) to learn as a pilot. But I'm sorry, your assessment of BVR is way off; I've seen too many Su/Mig drivers push straight through Aim120C's @10-12nm without even going defensive. Noob reds may still get caught out, but most others don't.

[Frostie]

You're right I have a lot (understatement of the decade) to learn as a pilot. But I'm sorry, your assessment of BVR is way off; I've seen too many Su/Mig drivers push straight through Aim120C's @10-12nm without even going defensive. Noob reds may still get caught out, but most others don't.

At 10-12nm they cant catch you, if you make the mistake of hanging around you need to be prepared to make the F-15 work CQ or else you need to ask yourself what are you doing there.

 

You work at this now then when better missiles happen you'll be an even better pilot.

[mmtaraval]

Seems to know what he's writing about.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=32019

[GGTharos]

As long as you ignore the weapon specifics and the fact that he is referring to falcon and not real life, the general idea is right.

 

Seems to know what he's writing about.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=32019

Edited May 7, 2014 by GGTharos

[*Rage*]

In theory, yes, however they've been saying the missiles are WIP ever since AFM was introduced (over a year ago). It seems the complexity of the AFM means adjustments are extremely difficult, but personally I can only assume (due to the elapsed time and lack of apparent progress) that there is either no internal agreement on the specific missile changes needed (usually masked by the disclaimer that nobody knows the RL missile performances) or ED has simply been deploying its resources elsewhere (probably EDGE/Nevada, and bringing other aircraft up to date with the AFM).

 

The result? Over a year of very lop-sided combat in which the F15, the world's pre-eminent air superiority fighter carrying the most technologically advanced MRM's in the sim, has been stripped of its long reach and forced into the role of dogfighting target drone for the Su27/Mig29.

 

You guys are missing the point. The Aim120 is still the best A2A missile in the game. It should be and it is. If the Su27 had the option of carrying the Aim120/R77 i'd be all over that. The fact that you are not having success online is a measure of who/what you are flying against. If you tried flying the Su/Mig you'd realise how much worse the ER/ET is.

 

I should also point out that there is probably some (minor) degree of missing/maltracking due to network code/desync etc

 

Sorry but this is your own doing rather than ED's, I don't fly the Eagle as often as most but in a server without datalink and limited mountains I could possibly fly all day and get plenty of kills without loss. To do this i'd have to fight at range to remove the risk of 50/50 (even less) merges to preserve my k/d. Regardless of what you think making kills at range still works well.

 

Now in the same scenario in the Flanker i'd guarantee i'd never get anywhere near as many kills by adopting the same tactics, alternately I get close and toe the fine line of chance with merging.

 

+1

 

There are plenty of dedicated F15 pilots achieving ridiculous k/d ratios online. The same k/d ratio cannot be achieved flying flankers.

 

You're right I have a lot (understatement of the decade) to learn as a pilot. But I'm sorry, your assessment of BVR is way off; I've seen too many Su/Mig drivers push straight through Aim120C's @10-12nm without even going defensive. Noob reds may still get caught out, but most others don't.

 

Noob pilots always get punished flying online. Pushing through 10nm of an active carrier is extremely dangerous. Again sometimes missiles do strange things but generally I expect to die if I get in within that range. I may get the kill but the odds are against surviving.

[TAW_Blaze]

You guys are missing the point. The Aim120 is still the best A2A missile in the game. It should be and it is. If the Su27 had the option of carrying the Aim120/R77 i'd be all over that. The fact that you are not having success online is a measure of who/what you are flying against. If you tried flying the Su/Mig you'd realise how much worse the ER/ET is.

 

When you get above 40k+ feet against a target that's also up high the ER is actually better due to sheer speed advantage and lack of loft. I mean, the loft we have on the slammer currently is more of a drawback than anything else.

[Frostie]

When you get above 40k+ feet against a target that's also up high the ER is actually better due to sheer speed advantage and lack of loft. I mean' date=' the loft we have on the slammer currently is more of a drawback than anything else.[/quote']

Totally agree with you, up high against an ER is tough but there is always that advantage to turn away and let your missile work, when using an ER up high against ARH and you get caught with that active coming fast at you up high, your pants are virtually down. At least with ER you know it's coming as it leaves the rail.

[*Rage*]

When you get above 40k+ feet against a target that's also up high the ER is actually better due to sheer speed advantage and lack of loft. I mean' date=' the loft we have on the slammer currently is more of a drawback than anything else.[/quote']

 

True. But both fighters launch and both descend/extend to avoid dying....

[TAW_Blaze]

ER there can be lethal from 20-25nm, while the slammer usually won't do anything from that range. During training I was able to just snake up to impact and it worked. That is only a sample of a few fights though so it might not represent it perfectly.

Edited May 7, 2014 by <Blaze>

[Frostie]

Yes there is a lethality to the ER's which are supported at range against an F-15 that doesn't give up, but in our trainings we sometimes run 1 F-15 v 2 or 3 Flankers or 2 F-15's v 4 Flankers, this is manageable because of the F-15s flexability at BVR. If we reverse the numbers a turkey shoot ensues.

[*Rage*]

ER there can be lethal from 20-25nm' date=' while the slammer usually won't do anything from that range. During training I was able to just snake up to impact and it worked. That is only a sample of a few fights though so it might not represent it perfectly.[/quote']

 

IF they track....