Beyond Visual Range Struggles

[TAW_Blaze]

Agree with Frostie. Most important, you have to defend against missiles that are still on the rail, although not getting shot at in the first place is always better. After they're launched, first step to defeat them is identifying where they were launched from. Range, altitude, relative energy, etc. Trying to defeat a missile fired from an unknown position is nearly impossible, given the fact it's fired within good parameters.

[winchesterdelta1]

Are you talking about Mulitplayer? I have been where you have been. And after i learned how to finally defeat missiles the other MP pilots came with other tactics to kill me.I have been on this level mainly because i didn't learn some routine. And because i made myself think i knew already enough to go own the sky. I have been playing this game since Lock On. And i consider myself still a NOOB. The thing is that it highly depends on who you are fighting. Flying on the 104th or the 151th is mostly a death sentence for beginners. But sometimes you are lucky and the servers are filled with new people. And you suddenly feel good again :)

 

The thing is. The people you are fighting against in MP know exactly what you are doing and when you are going to do something. They have a tactic against all of it and they coordinate with others. It's going to be a strugle to get the hang of this. But if you do get the hang of it you will encounter some amazing situations and be really proud at yourself. Even if you get shot down you will have a feeling you fought hard and proud.

Hang in there man. This is probably the most diffecult game ever. Most new people think that if you can tkae off, turn your radar on, avoid some missiles, kill somebody and land you learned everything. But it only starts there.

[Exorcet]

concentrate on surviving rather than dodging every missile and killing every bandit, that way you'll become a much better BVR pilot in the virtual arena,

When I learned that, that's when I stopped being a target. Disengaging is a very valid strategy. It beats stumbling into 3 enemy fighters that you never knew were there.

[104th_Maverick]

people you are fighting against in MP know exactly what you are doing and when you are going to do something

 

^this!

 

Its very important for anyone who is getting started in the MP air to air side to remember most of the time you are going up against very capaple opponents who have been doing this for a long time!

 

This is not the type of game you can be 'naturally' good at quickly... it doesn't work like that at all.

 

All the aces in this game have been working at it for a good while and have a wealth of knowledge and experience.... there is NO shortcut to becoming an online killer, its all hard work, lessons learned and experience gained.

 

You have to fall flat on your face many times before the penny begins to drop and you start to see a marked improvement in your performance.

 

There are no hotshot new comers to DCSW (air to air)... every pilot you see here posting on the forums who is worth his salt came up the hard way... and got his ass kicked by the better pilots until he upped his game... there are no exceptions to this!

[GGTharos]

I've been flying the SU-27 for a couple of weeks. Doing research, trying to figure out flight patterns, evasive maneuvers and all that.

 

Did you look at how the various devices (Radars etc) work and how they can be defeated? Knowing how to fly your plane is very important, and one of the biggest parts of defeating enemy shots and winning the fight. Knowing how your equipment and their equipment works is the other big part.

 

But Right now I'm actually getting quite frustrated by the damn fact that NOTHING seems to be working. The notch, energy fighting, turn fighting, beaming the missile ( biggest joke ever in my honest experience. ) and plenty of others.

Beaming the missile certainly works. At long ranges it works all on its own (the missile won't reach you), but as you get closer you may need to add countermeasures and additional maneuvers (eg. last ditch defense) to make it work.

 

You're simply being impatient and you're not analyzing. Have you created a mission where a bandit just has one missile to shoot at you and you practice with that? If your 'practice' is reading some stuff and then letting people online shoot a bunch of sticks at you, you're going to be very frustrated, as you've found.

 

 

RWR goes silent for like 7 to 10 seconds, still get hit. Guess what? Aim120.

Because you've turned it outside of your RWR's coverage. It's +/- 35 deg from the wing plane, 360 deg all around.

 

I've been Beaming it's original location Gaining & losing altitude flaring&Chaff. ( Still haven't had the slightest visual on any missile because there seems to be NO smoke trail after the first 2 seconds of it being fired.

Of course you won't get visual on it, that's the whole point of the low smoke rocket motor.

 

Or if I do hear the RWR, same story. try notch, or beaming, out turning it, out climbing it, plumbing it to the ground but nooooo still get hit.

So you're doing all of this stuff wrong or at the wrong time.

 

Right now my average score is 10 deaths to 1 kill m'right? Did get a Mig. or a louzy Ground attack aircraft.

I kill 'lousy ground attack aircraft' all the time, it's one of the more important parts of the fighter mission ... since those are the guys shooting at your boots on the ground.

 

Bit frustrating when there's absolutely no improvement for weeks, despite hours and hours of research, trying, and putting effort into it.

So you need to change how you do your research or how you practice your research. This is the technical part of your fight. Then comes the implementation of this knowledge along with other knowledge, which is tactical part of your fight - why are you at the altitude you're at? Can you guess what the other guy is going to do, and when? Do you know that he can read your moves?

 

Close A2A however I have noooo problems or what so ever. Doing pretty good on the contrary.

That's what they all say :)

[GGTharos]

Yes, there is. You need a good instructor - one who both knows his stuff cold, and who knows how to instruct from the very start. Those are very few and far inbetween to find in any online community.

 

;2017730']there is NO shortcut to becoming an online killer' date=' its all hard work, lessons learned and experience gained.[/quote']

[winchesterdelta1]

Yes, there is. You need a good instructor - one who both knows his stuff cold, and who knows how to instruct from the very start. Those are very few and far inbetween to find in any online community.

 

You call that a shortcut :) He will probably make you work very hard :joystick:

[TAW_Blaze]

That's what they all say :)

 

:megalol:

[GGTharos]

If we avoid the entire conversation of 'proper training', you get sorted in a couple of weeks as opposed to taking 2-3 years to finally get it right on your own ... there's a lot of half-info lying around that doesn't explain all the little details and tricks for example - even for the notch, there are various techniques to use it, though you might think it's basically simple.

 

If we get into 'proper flying', almost no one teaches it, and it does take time.

 

You call that a shortcut :) He will probably make you work very hard :joystick:

[winchesterdelta1]

If you like. Jump on TS every time you fly. Maybe i will be there. I am a good target as well. Without people like us they would never have some much fun. And they will be bragging about us. How much they killed us. :thumbup:

[TAW_Blaze]

Actually the better pilots I face the happier I am. Getting killed by a guy that just got lucky will piss me off, getting killed by a good pilot doing it the right way will make me learn. The better the opposition, the bigger the challange and the fun. Having an X-0 score is all good and cool but in the end it's always the hard fights that you remember, regardless of losing or winning.

[Frostie]

You just need to be shown how to wax on and wax off properly, then go practice it and come back in 2 weeks.

 

Then you can paint the fence.

[kk0425]

If you really want to become better I suggest reading this book to help.

http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Maneuvering-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1394478798&sr=1-1&keywords=fighter+combat+tactics+and+maneuvering

 

I just got it and am a bit through chapter one which is just weapons. It gives a lot of good advice and some of it kind makes you face palm because you feel like you should have known it already. One of the most memorable examples from that which made me think a little goes, "You must first defeat your enemy then you can shoot."

 

You won't become an instant ace, but it really makes you think about BVR.

[JulienBlanc]

First of all I'd like to sincerely thank you guys for all the replies, and information you are providing me with. It really softens the mood and gives me the will to continue, improve, search for my mistakes and make adjustments.

 

I noticed the so to call "Dead angles" of the RWR during maneuvers, and sometimes the RWR pops up again, in which case I really try to adjust the course to setting it back on my 11 or 2. I guess when it doesn't it means that it's already too late and incoming from the "dead angle"

 

As of disengaging I may ( very certainly ) have been trying to rush towards the first contact too quickly and too unaware of the situation.

I may have taken the idea of "F-15's will not engage unless they have the absolute advantage" and the "Su-27 will on the contrary be more opportunistic" a bit to literally...

 

I rarely try to get a radar lock when I'm pushed into going defensive, the best thing ( Correct me if I am wrong ) I thought of doing was concentrating on the missile and on defeating it. As mentioned I do go tunnel vision on that missile as soon as I get the warning for it...

 

 

Taking a few steps back I'm thinking that even though the PvP is the most satisfying and fun environment, it is absolutely not "noob friendly" as players may work as units, are scattered around the map ( team kills ) Boogies on your 10', 12', 3' and 6' at the same time.

 

I have Tacview to observe my occasional single player missions, but I definitely have a long way to go before getting the utter hang of missile tracking and defeat.

 

So far I've only managed to dodge long range SAM missiles I guess it's something!

Thanks again for the support :)

[JulienBlanc]

I'd be very much interested into joining TS servers other than the Acrobatic server ( On which I have spent most of my time learning about the aircraft that I am flying, as well as my opponents )

If you don't mind pm'ing me the server It'd be greatly appreciated :) Always in for a good laugh!

[GGTharos]

First of all I'd like to sincerely thank you guys for all the replies, and information you are providing me with. It really softens the mood and gives me the will to continue, improve, search for my mistakes and make adjustments.

 

Good, that's the right attitude.

 

I noticed the so to call "Dead angles" of the RWR during maneuvers, and sometimes the RWR pops up again, in which case I really try to adjust the course to setting it back on my 11 or 2. I guess when it doesn't it means that it's already too late and incoming from the "dead angle"

 

Here what you need is contact flying. You can't see RWR warnings, you can't see the missile launch, but you CAN see landmarks on the ground. Use them.

 

As of disengaging I may ( very certainly ) have been trying to rush towards the first contact too quickly and too unaware of the situation.

I may have taken the idea of "F-15's will not engage unless they have the absolute advantage" and the "Su-27 will on the contrary be more opportunistic" a bit to literally...

 

F-15's should always have a huge BVR advantage; they don't in this game, but things may get tweaked up to the point where this is the case. At that point you really need to better than the other guy to win - and I'm just talking 1v1's. You should ideally never be able to survive a 1v2 if you don't disengage early enough, where for an F-15 a 1v2 vs. a player of 27S without actives might be an unwise proposition, but perhaps not as dire (... still pretty unwise).

 

I rarely try to get a radar lock when I'm pushed into going defensive, the best thing ( Correct me if I am wrong ) I thought of doing was concentrating on the missile and on defeating it. As mentioned I do go tunnel vision on that missile as soon as I get the warning for it...

 

That's typical, so you just need to practice missile evasion until it's a routine and you can do other things while you're evading. Mind you, you will always lose situational awareness while defending. There are no exceptions.

 

Taking a few steps back I'm thinking that even though the PvP is the most satisfying and fun environment, it is absolutely not "noob friendly" as players may work as units, are scattered around the map ( team kills ) Boogies on your 10', 12', 3' and 6' at the same time.

 

Just don't fly into such a situation. Use everything you know to judge enemy positions, altitudes and intentions. You have briefings, maps, usually a bullseye is listed, often you will have EWR/AWACS support as well. Use all that info.

 

You need to know where everyone is and what they're doing, not just the guy you're fighting or looking to fight.

[JulienBlanc]

One of the situations I faced recently is facing 2 Jamming targets, one on my 12' head on, and one on my 2'. As I kept approaching hoping to burn through their ECM I found myself ( according to the jammed radar lock ) at less than 10km well beyond launch authorisation, but still unable to a. Identify and b. Position them.

 

Have I missed the clue to burning through ECM?

[GGTharos]

Burn-through is pretty short ranged, about 40km against an F-15, a bit further against a 29S. You will get the best burn-through if you have the most appropriate PRF mode selected, ie. HPRF for head-on targets, MPRF for tail-on.

 

ECM removes your ability to know range, so again ... use your other resources like EWR/AWACS to a) declare (declare call) the strobes as friendly or hostile and b) get their altitudes and aspects (picture call).

 

Bogie dope only gives you the closest bandit, and you may find that using it when you have two bandits incoming is not the best thing. However using the picture call requires you to do the mental math for locating them with respect to your position from bullseye.

 

That said, in a Su-27, if you have EWR/AWACS you should have just about all the info save for altitude displayed on your datalink.

[104th_Maverick]

you will always lose situational awareness while defending. There are no exceptions.

 

Actually yes there is... if your defending from an attacking aircraft and flying back towards more friendlies they can give you SA on what the guy is doing behind you! The classic drag and bag is certainly an exception!

 

Annoying when someone does this isn't it GG ;) Hint hint!

[*Rage*]

GG, theres a clue for you in Mavericks post:smilewink:

[GGTharos]

What clue? SA is lost when you are defensive. Your friends might have some, but you're losing yours.

[104th_Maverick]

Your friends might have some, but you're losing yours.

 

Luckily we use TeamSpeak that doubles as a Radio ;)

 

[GGTharos]

When you're defensive, you're losing SA. You might be losing it at a lesser rate than some other guy, but you're still losing it.

 

;2018224']Luckily we use TeamSpeak that doubles as a Radio ;)

[Oberst Zeisig]

When you're defensive, you're losing SA. You might be losing it at a lesser rate than some other guy, but you're still losing it.

 

The clue is what You make of this SA You got left. ;) That's where the fight is won against good pilots.

[GGTharos]

That is just a bunch of hand-waving. I don't think you even know what a good pilot is.

 

The clue is what You make of this SA You got left. ;) That's where the fight is won against good pilots.