2 Major Problems With Russian Fighters in DCS

[ALPHA_2014]

So does AIM-120, AIM-7, R-27E/ER, not to mention a whole bunch of other AAMs and SAMs. :)

 

Except, AIM-7, R-27/ER are SARH missile, and R-77 is ARH. Are you suggesting DL (Datalink) is same as mid-course semi-active radar guidance??? And thats why when you fire R-77 in STT mode the RWR of the target get a missile lunch warning????

[TAW_Blaze]

I'll give you a hint, ED's mainly working for the military making simulations there, this thing is just their side project.

[Frostie]

I am not questioning the AIM-120 performance with F-15. I already know that TWS gives no warning to the enemy fighter, but R-77 is a bit different, and its NOT same for MIG heres why.....

 

R-77 is NOT a SARH missile, nor a combination of SAHR and ARH. It has ARH\ DL\ AND IMU.

 

Originally Posted by Frostie

Taken from Carlo Kopp.

Active Radar Guided AAMs

The third option one may choose is the use of semi-active radar midcourse guidance. Like in all semi-active radar systems, the fire control employs a microwave beam to illuminate the target. The missile receives this energy and uses it to guide in within the range of its own radar, which is then used for the terminal phase. Semi-active midcourse guidance offers the advantage of simplicity, as the missile need only use its own radar in a passive mode, without any datalink receivers or inertial reference systems. On the other hand, though, this form of guidance lends itself to deception and jamming, if appropriate measures are not taken.

 

 

The semi-active radar mid-course guidance is applies to american ARH missiles, and to semi-active missile such as AIM-54 phoenix missile. I already read the whole thing.

 

Another reason that's not the case for R-77, look where I highlighted the quote you got from carlo Kopps, it even mentioned that by using semi-active radar mid-course, it does not uses datalink receivers or inertial reference system.

 

Which is NOT the case for R-77, because it DOES uses datalink and IMU for its guidance to the target.

 

You're getting confused, most if not all radar missiles represented in FC, SARH and ARH have Datalink and INS in RL. INS has been present in missiles since the 50s.

 

The highlighted part in yellow is how SARH work in terminal guidance, the missiles use the reflection from the aircrafts radar to the target to guide them to that target. This is why the ARH missile radar will be passive it will only be receiving the reflection but the warning to the target will still come from the shooting aircraft because of its mode change in STT.

 

Datalink and INS is used on SARH and ARH missiles to use updated information for correct flight path and trajectory for interception to the target, this is before the terminal stage where SARH and ARH seekers can come into their own. SARH uses its own seeker to track the reflections from the shooter, while the ARH can use its own radar when it reaches the range at which its small radar strength reaches eg. 8.6nm for R-77(terminal stage). The SARH will use returns from the target off the shooters radar, this happens at the terminal stage which from that list could be 16nm.

 

With an ARH launched in TWS the Datalink and INS is used to work in tandem with the aircrafts radar so as to send the missile to a place in the sky in the vicinity of the target and then activates the missiles seeker, this is when no warning is presumed to happen (until less than 8.6nm for R-77) because radar power from the aircraft is not being focused solely on the target(there is no real time datalink), as is the case with SARH/STT.

 

I've never heard of any information to say that an R-77 and AIM-120 have different methods other than if one was used with TWS and another with STT, and you haven't brought any.

[GGTharos]

I'm not suggesting, I'm telling you that the data-link is the system that is being used. A SARH missile won't use its seeker until it's close enough for it to reliably detect the carrier's radar reflection from the target aircraft. More modern implementations of those missiles, be they ARH or SARH, can also use information from the M-Link to help sort targets or reject countermeasures and all sorts of other fun stuff.

 

Some SARH are short ranged enough to not need a DL, but most modern SARH missiles have it. The only SARH-to-ARH guidance that is even hinted at was implemented only in the original AIM-54A, and even that we're not too certain of.

 

EDIT: Sniped by Frostie

 

Except, AIM-7, R-27/ER are SARH missile, and R-77 is ARH. Are you suggesting DL (Datalink) is same as mid-course semi-active radar guidance??? And thats why when you fire R-77 in STT mode the RWR of the target get a missile lunch warning????

Edited March 24, 2014 by GGTharos

[GGTharos]

If you already knew about it, why didn't you guys do anything about it? cuz, it had these problems for months (probably for more than 4-5 months).

 

What do you want me to do about it? We report the bugs, but it's not like we can actually fix them.

 

Why I cant access to the informations ED has regarding R-77 ??? IS it because its too classified?!?!? lol Is there any information at all ?!?!?

There's basically a few things regarding information:

1) Stuff you can find on the net. Sometimes reliable, but you have to know what you're looking at.

2) Stuff that you can find on the net, but you must pay money for it. People aren't as likely to share this, because well, they paid money for it.

3) Information that is given to ED which is sometimes shared with testers.

4) Information that is given to ED and they are not allowed to share with anyone.

 

You claimed that what I say about R-77 is not true, and my sources are not worthy, but if I want to get it, it not too hard... while you failed to provide a single documentation or source regarding this topic.

My documentation doesn't always come from the net and it isn't always publishable :)

 

Well, what is a reliable sources??? give me a link, or a document.

 

Not trying to be rude, but the informations you guys have are no where near reliable either, because every time you guys fix a bug, you break dosen more, and we all know that.

That's a pretty interesting logical side-step, not to mention the insult so yeah - you're being rude. It's okay though, you can be rude to me, I don't care. Bugs are defined as 'software operation that was not intended' - what does reliable information have to do with bugs?

 

Keep in mind, I am not saying that the information you guys have are not good at all, I am saying its not sufficient in every detail, and needs work, research, which is why I posted this topic in first place.

Keep in mind that we've seen all of this before and we know how to judge the merits of information better than you. There are several people on this forum who are currently serving in the military who know these weapons. If information isn't classified, sometimes they help ED by providing that information or advice. You won't find ANY links OR documents on the net regarding such information. Some of those people are on the test team.

 

Those of us who aren't serving might have access to various weapons manuals, as well as friends who are serving. Sometimes you can get those manuals too, but they cost money. Other times you won't get to even know they exist, and some of us are lucky to have such things.

[ALPHA_2014]

That's a pretty interesting logical side-step, not to mention the insult so yeah - you're being rude. It's okay though, you can be rude to me, I don't care. Bugs are defined as 'software operation that was not intended' - what does reliable information have to do with bugs?

 

I didn't meant to be rude in any way as I have said, I just saw a problem, though I could help, even by mentioning the problem.

And if you don't care, that's good, because I wasn't rude any way.

 

And I am sorry, I didn't know that a sudden change in detection a target in EOS from 50 km to 200km is a "software operation" issue, or the R-77 in all modes for that matter. Even simultaneous target engagement in TWS2 mode doesn't work any more.

 

Those people who know me play on a server, knows that most of the time I fly MIG-29S.

And maybe I didn't explain the problem with R-77 probably but here it is:

 

I tested this several times with my frinds over DCS, I even noticed that when R-77 fired in STT mode from 80 km away, and MIG-29 radar lost the lock on the target, it was still giving a ,missile lunch warning from 60 -80 km away.

 

That's why on my first post, I said the seeker of R-77 is no more than 15 km depending on target RCS.

 

Now tell me if it still make seance to have a missile lunch warning form 80 km away from a fighter in STT mode that no longer has a LOCK on your air craft.

 

Keep in mind that we've seen all of this before and we know how to judge the merits of information better than you. There are several people on this forum who are currently serving in the military who know these weapons. If information isn't classified, sometimes they help ED by providing that information or advice. You won't find ANY links OR documents on the net regarding such information. Some of those people are on the test team.

 

Those of us who aren't serving might have access to various weapons manuals, as well as friends who are serving. Sometimes you can get those manuals too, but they cost money. Other times you won't get to even know they exist, and some of us are lucky to have such things.

 

 

It's good to know we have so many valuable and intelligent people helping to improve this simulation.

 

I didn't brought this to you before, but FYI, I will be working in Northrup Grumman soon as a co-op through out summer, simply because, I recently graduated from university, and the major that I have studied in, has to do a lot with radars and signal propagation.

[GGTharos]

I didn't meant to be rude in any way as I have said, I just saw a problem, though I could help, even by mentioning the problem.

 

What was rude is saying that fixing one bug breaks another 12, you weren't really being rude to me.

 

And I am sorry, I didn't know that a sudden change in detection a target in EOS from 50 km to 200km is a "software operation" issue, or the R-77 in all modes for that matter. Even simultaneous target engagement in TWS2 mode doesn't work any more.

Maybe there is a language barrier.

 

A software bug means the software is operating in a way that was not intended by the developer.

You were arguing completely different things, and you were all over the place with it - in other words you broadened the subject into other things.

 

The two bugs which you brought up - the actual two bugs, EOS range being too long, and MiG-29 TWS2 giving a lock/launch warning we knew about. Why aren't they fixed yet? I don't know - but anyway, bringing up bugs, that's good. Arguing about implementation, not necessarily such a good idea.

 

I tested this several times with my frinds over DCS, I even noticed that when R-77 fired in STT mode from 80 km away, and MIG-29 radar lost the lock on the target, it was still giving a ,missile lunch warning from 60 -80 km away.

The RWR will maintain certain statuses for a few seconds - so if you launch in STT, a missile warning is given, and if you lose lock right after this, the RWR may still issue the launch warning for a few seconds.

 

That's why on my first post, I said the seeker of R-77 is no more than 15 km depending on target RCS.

Detection range depends on target RCS, but activation range of the seeker (the 15km) is always the same.

 

I didn't brought this to you before, but FYI, I will be working in Northrup Grumman soon as a co-op through out summer, simply because, I recently graduated from university, and the major that I have studied in, has to do a lot with radars and signal propagation.

That's great, good on you.

[ALPHA_2014]

I'm not suggesting, I'm telling you that the data-link is the system that is being used. A SARH missile won't use its seeker until it's close enough for it to reliably detect the carrier's radar reflection from the target aircraft.

 

It's good to know that you know that radars signal is modulated signal, and receiver needs to detect the carrier of that modulated signal.

 

But how can the seeker do that when there is no carrier signal anymore, either:

 

A- Use the another modulated signal. Perhaps, the Active seeker.

 

B- To use the signal that is emitted by the target's radar passively, or signals generated by the targets ECM.

 

And I do know that when you lock a target in STT mode, and fire a ARH missile, the target should receive a missile lunch warning.

But my point is as I have said before, that doesn't mean that ARH missile like R-77 has SARH system as well.

 

More modern implementations of those missiles, be they ARH or SARH, can also use information from the M-Link to help sort targets or reject countermeasures and all sorts of other fun stuff.

 

Thats not some thing new, I already read about the features of new long-rang AAMs RVV-AE. As the range increases for those type of missiles, they need networking to further accurately to be guided towards a target.

[GGTharos]

I really have no idea why you're continuing to argue.

[Frostie]

Even simultaneous target engagement in TWS2 mode doesn't work any more.

 

It does work fine. I've just recently tested it, the only problem occurs if you delay the second shot too long it will go for the first contact.

 

I did bring the lock/launch warning up several months ago but forgot to put some tracks up from both shooter and target. Thanks to you highlighting the problem reminded me to make some tracks which I uploaded in the bug forum the other day.

As for the EOS, ED know the limitations of the system and have had it implemented fine in previous versions LOMAC, FC1 and FC2 so I'm sure getting it right for FC3 is on the cards.

[ALPHA_2014]

What was rude is saying that fixing one bug breaks another 12, you weren't really being rude to me.

 

Hows that rude?!?! Sorry to pointing out obvious stuff, because its true and FYI, I am not the only one who thinks that's way.

 

Maybe there is a language barrier.

 

A software bug means the software is operating in a way that was not intended by the developer.

You were arguing completely different things, and you were all over the place with it - in other words you broadened the subject into other things.

 

??? Not sure what you mean that " I was broadened the subject into other things" and I don't even care.

 

I even break down what was the problems and how its not what it sopuse to be.

 

bringing up bugs, that's good. Arguing about implementation, not necessarily such a good idea.

 

I am not arguing with any one.... I just pointed out some obvious stuff, regarding how RWR react to R-77 lunch, but you keep claiming that's not the case while at the same time meant the same thing as I did. lol

 

Even when you accused me for being rude, and I apologized and explained to you thats not the what I meant,

 

You still arguing about that.

 

The RWR will maintain certain statuses for a few seconds - so if you launch in STT, a missile warning is given, and if you lose lock right after this, the RWR may still issue the launch warning for a few seconds.

 

I don't think was few seconds that's why, I brought it to you.

 

Detection range depends on target RCS, but activation range of the seeker (the 15km) is always the same.

 

If missile seeker has not detected the target, how can it go active ??

 

there is graph for that .....

 

[Frostie]

 

If missile seeker has not detected the target, how can it go active ?

 

The seeker doesn't detect the target, the aircraft radar either updates the missile with the targets location, the missile uses a programmed path or the missile tracks the reflection, either way the missile will have a set parameter to go active based on the info it has been given.

[GGTharos]

Hows that rude?!?! Sorry to pointing out obvious stuff, because its true and FYI, I am not the only one who thinks that's way.

 

You mean you're not the only one who's full of it. :) Those of us who do test, we know better - we have a running bug tally. Wait, didn't I see you on some other forum?

 

I am not arguing with any one.... I just pointed out some obvious stuff, regarding how RWR react to R-77 lunch, but you keep claiming that's not the case while at the same time meant the same thing as I did. lol

 

Resolving bugs requires good bug reporting.

 

Here is what you posted:

 

2- I also noticed the R-77 gives missile lunch warning to an air craft at the range of 80 km as soon as it leaves the MIG-29. Again, such a thing is Not practical and needs to be fixed, because the enemy air craft can only get a lunch warning if the seeker of R-77 goes active, and seeker of R-77 does not have the power nor capability to detect and pit-bull on a target at 80 km. The detection range of the R-77 seeker is no more than ~15 km at target with typical RCS (radar cross section) of 3m square.

 

According to the above, insofar as I know you launched that missile in STT and it's working as it is supposed to.

 

I don't think was few seconds that's why, I brought it to you.

 

Great, where are the tracks?

 

If missile seeker has not detected the target, how can it go active ??

 

... really? No, I'm just stunned, seriously. Ok, what Frostie said, and what you posted in the original post:

 

Keep in mind, active missiles like AIM-120 and R-77 relays on the radar of the fighter as to where the target is located, heading, altitude, speed, and direction. If the fighter of which fired AIM-120 or R-77 loses the lock, the missile uses inertial navigation system based on last information that were given by the radar of the fighter (heading, speed, altitude, direction), and once missile knows its relatively close to the target it will go active, and homes on the target regardless of friend or foe.

[NineLine]

[lunaticfringe]

The seeker doesn't detect the target, the aircraft radar either updates the missile with the targets location, the missile uses a programmed path or the missile tracks the reflection, either way the missile will have a set parameter to go active based on the info it has been given.

 

Or, more aptly- how does the missile's radar detect the aircraft if it's not in some way active? It doesn't- it's getting data.

 

Simple rephrase (and Frostie at length) for the win.

[TAW_Blaze]

"R-77 lunch"

 

:D No offense, just having a laugh here.

[ALPHA_2014]

You mean you're not the only one who's full of it.

 

Ofcourse I am not a only one, cuz you are included.

 

Wait, didn't I see you on some other forum?

 

yea, that is strange... you probably did :)

 

Resolving bugs requires good bug reporting.

 

lol.. ok, so if you are such a expert in bug reporting, I offered to go over it with you in Team speak, or even on a server to show it to you, so you don't have to keep going back and forth over this topic.

 

You want me to provide you with bug report over this forum.... well...giving the fact that you keep miss-interpreting my points, it would be pointless.

 

According to the above, insofar as I know you launched that missile in STT and it's working as it is supposed to.

 

Seriously??

LOL...I think its part of requirement that I have to keep repeating my self over this topic with you.

 

I said it million times that it was NOT just STT mode that I test fired the R-77.

 

 

Great, where are the tracks?

 

Wait, didn't you just claimed that you have a good bug reporting, and testing skills...

 

Great,...

 

cuz if you are, I am pretty sure you have FC3 and DCS to test and record tracts your self. Unless you want be to show it to you over a server ....

 

... really? No, I'm just stunned, seriously. Ok, what Frostie said, and what you posted in the original post:

 

ouhh.. I am sorry, I though you were joking...:lol:

 

Because, what I said about the seeker of the R-77 (9B-1348E seeker) had nothing to do with entire operation of the missile that Frostie and I was pointing out.

 

No, really .. thats rich, I am the one who should be stunned after 5 pages of continuous back and forth comments.

[GGTharos]

I'll wait until you decide to start making sense, I won't be holding my breath though :)

[ALPHA_2014]

It does work fine. I've just recently tested it, the only problem occurs if you delay the second shot too long it will go for the first contact.

 

That's probably because the second target fall out the radar detection....

 

But you have to keep in mind.. as I Have been flying MIG for long time, most of the times I find my self engaging a single target...you want maximize the element of surprise for R-77 missile launch, since it is with in the capability of the R-77.

 

And TWS, or TWS2 mode does not work probably when there is only 1 target as I have recently tested it.

 

It tracks the target but it forces you to lock it manually... which makes it give warning from the moment you fire it, until it gets near the target.

 

 

I did bring the lock/launch warning up several months ago but forgot to put some tracks up from both shooter and target. Thanks to you highlighting the problem reminded me to make some tracks which I uploaded in the bug forum the other day.

As for the EOS, ED know the limitations of the system and have had it implemented fine in previous versions LOMAC, FC1 and FC2 so I'm sure getting it right for FC3 is on the cards.

 

I hope they eventually get it right. And I dont think FC2 had a TWS2 mode on their MIG-29S... as you have probably seen me many tiems fly it.

Edited March 25, 2014 by ALPHA_2014

[ALPHA_2014]

The seeker doesn't detect the target, the aircraft radar either updates the missile with the targets location, the missile uses a programmed path or the missile tracks the reflection, either way the missile will have a set parameter to go active based on the info it has been given.

 

True... I have agreed to this long time ago..as I have said it my self many times in this topic.

 

I was talking about a situation where a Fighter lost a lock and detection, once it fired the ARH missile.

 

Then Missile rely on IMU (Inertial Measurement Unit, last information given by the radar to the missile regarding speed direction, altitude, and heading of the target) to navigate it self to the expected target area.. and then search, and once it detected a target, regardless of friend or foe, it will home in to that target.

 

And unfortunately... currently that's not the case for R-77 in any of the radar modes .

Edited March 25, 2014 by ALPHA_2014

[kk0425]

So this thread has been pretty entertaining so far, but I have a question. If the fighter loses lock, doesn't the missile go active and the RWR of the defending aircraft pick it up? I don't know if the RWR is sensitive enough to pick up an ARH from 50-80km.

[GGTharos]

The real missile would follow its programming to the last known fly-out location.

 

The in-game missile immediately goes ballistic and active.

 

Regarding your question about the (real) RWR at that range, we just don't know. In-game, it won't detect it that far.

[kk0425]

Thanks for the info. I should have specified I was asking about in-game.

[ALPHA_2014]

So this thread has been pretty entertaining so far, but I have a question. If the fighter loses lock, doesn't the missile go active and the RWR of the defending aircraft pick it up? I don't know if the RWR is sensitive enough to pick up an ARH from 50-80km.

 

Thats a good question...you are hitting the point I have been making in the past 5 pages.

 

What I have noticed most of the times... it just goes ballistic and straight....rather than to correct its flight path to the expected target area using IMU.

 

And some times it actually does give warning from 50-80 km away, which I mentioned it in my first post, that it makes no seance.

[kk0425]

I wasn't actually trying to make a point. It was a simple question about game mechanics. The few times I know I was shot at by a MiG-29 was from STT with the R-77's seeker showing on my RWR just a little later.