SU-35 vs F-22

[Invader ZIM]

and physics. :D We did the same when we didn't understand.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Invader ZIM

[Basher54321]

I think he wants to know more about aviation. Mostly everyone starts out in this hobby believing certain things without necessarily understanding them or knowing much about the subject, which is quite broad.

 

 

On the bright side it can only improve - I would prescribe a few years without reading Youtube comments and wiki.

[Invader ZIM]

Agreed, the best info comes from real books.

 

Getting an outdated copy of Jane's Electronic warfare systems and such are pretty good eye openers to what's out there.

 

And a good book to introduce stealth and how/why it works is this:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=qZlrReU-cMkC&pg=PT42&lpg=PT42&dq=Carbon+composite+stealth+missile&source=bl&ots=Nsc_fHYcTd&sig=1ri8UR-AbZBd6iwYg4eWN-aJks0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=p_MqU5KmIYyw0QGW3IDgCw&ved=0CEgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Carbon%20composite%20stealth%20missile&f=false

 

That was some facinating reading for me anyways.

 

This also helped, despite being an online source, especially when you could play it out using the Harpoon 2 simulation.

 

http://www.harpoonhq.com/waypoint/articles/Article_021.pdf

[JNASova]

It doesn't mean anything. You cannot tail-slide or do cobra with F-15, but every time it got into a dogfight with a MiG-29, the 29 got shot down. And I do mean dogfight.

 

What is than purpose of airshows?Flying modern fighters is very expensive.Do Americans and Russians are coming to Paris to show new paint job?I dont think so.

 

MiG - F 15.Wrong.US F 15 never fought agains russian MiG 29.Only older downgraded export versions of MiG 29 in poor condition like in Jugoslavija.

 

MiG 31 is able to guide missile of the other MiG 31.

[GGTharos]

MiG - F 15.Wrong.US F 15 never fought agains russian MiG 29.Only older downgraded export versions of MiG 29 in poor condition like in Jugoslavija.

 

The only missiles used in the dogfights were heat seekers. It doesn't matter if it was a Russian MiG-29 or an export, they fly the same and shoot R-73's the same. And FYI, not everyone flew the export variant either, and Yugoslavia isn't the only place where F-15's shot down MiG-29's, nor were there any MiG-29 vs F-15 dogfights in Yugoslavia, those were all non-turning BVR engagements. I really don' care about what happened in Yugoslavia (with the exception of BVR application of missiles, sometimes in poor condition), as it's barely interesting for the reasons you mentioned. If I mention a MiG-29, you can assume it wasn't in Yugoslavia. ;)

 

MiG 31 is able to guide missile of the other MiG 31.

Not without causing itself huge problems. This is radar basics. In some rare situations this capability may apply, in most, probably not. This is a problem for all older radars - if you had them operating on the same channels, yes, they could guide each other's missiles in a fashion, but it is also a problem if both aircraft have to engage different targets.

 

To make it more clear, if they're both on the same channel and the two planes both illuminate targets that both missiles can see in their FoVs, which target will the missile of each plane choose? The other problem is that with the radars being on the same channel, so is the M-Link, so you can't use this to discriminate the target either.

 

In general the 'guiding someone else's missile' has been a neat idea for fighters, but until pretty recently it is simply impractical.

Edited May 18, 2014 by GGTharos

[USARStarkey]

FINE ENOUGH. Since you are clearly incapable of listening to reason and disregard all information that doesn't support your hypothesis-----HERE are some irrefutable facts:

 

THERE are 35 Su-35 in Russian service. There are only about 40 ever produced.

 

THERE are 187 Raptors in US service.

 

End result? There are so few Su-35s in existence that they may as well be considered not to exist relatively speaking. EVEN IF you were right about the drivel you have been spouting for that last 28 pages, which you are most assuredly not, the number of Su-35's in existence makes the aircraft completely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

 

In summary: Who gives a hoot.

[six.dof]

good to see that Afghanistan is the only point of criticism to my last post, i put it there as hook for the dosen't matter what complains.

of course i understand that Afghanistan have nothing to do with modern Army defeat.

 

i think if we talk about possible conflict where the F22 should establish Air dominance, can be within the next 20 to 30 years, as the next generation competition similar ATF, comes 2030.

 

until them, there are a lot Su35, T50, J20, J31 out there, 187 F22 are nothing for a global power, they can deploy maybe 2/3 of it (not counting in that losese can't be replaced by new one), the Argument for the 1000+ F35, will see how many finally been bought, or can be affordable for the related Nation's,, with his short range, they have to be stationed, or refueled quite near to enemy territory, a sitting duck, as this are the first targets besides AWACS and communication in a conflict.

[GGTharos]

until them, there are a lot Su35, T50, J20, J31 out there

 

There are 40 Su35's, and none of the others out there.

 

187 F22 are nothing for a global power, they can deploy maybe 2/3 of it (not counting in that losese can't be replaced by new one), the Argument for the 1000+ F35, will see how many finally been bought, or can be affordable for the related Nation's,, with his short range, they have to be stationed, or refueled quite near to enemy territory, a sitting duck, as this are the first targets besides AWACS and communication in a conflict.

 

Short range compared to what?

[six.dof]

until 2030, i guess there are a lot more than 40 Su37 globally, and none of others is quite optimistic, if you see the finance power of China and India, and the economy situation of the country's in the F35 club, i think is not sure the F35 will be ever in big qty on the sky.

 

but there will be no more than 187 F22, - the lost in trainning.

 

to make a attack on a hostile Airspace with a F35, which is defended by Systems like S300, S400,EWR like P14 Oborona and P18 Spoon Rest D , A50, Mig31, Su27,Su30,Su35, T50, the refueling in Air have to be done in quite a distance, or stainoned within the range of SRBM ( F35 combat range around 600nm in best case)

the above Aircrafts i mentioned, have at least double combat radius as the F35, and Weaopons like R33, R37, K100 on the Mig31, will make it difficult to defend AWACS and Tanker, if they have to come close to the border, to support the "short" range of the F35.

 

aditional we should think for the technology imrovement the next 30 year, of course on both sides, but the chance that Stealth be defeated by technology, is a realistic thread, as VHF envolve rapidly, is just a question of time, until VHF can be used to guide SAM, instead to give a rough position.

[ФрогФут]

THERE are 35 Su-35 in Russian service.

12 in a regular squadron in test operation + something like 10 on flight tests. It is not in real service yet.

[USARStarkey]

good to see that Afghanistan is the only point of criticism to my last post, i put it there as hook for the dosen't matter what complains.

of course i understand that Afghanistan have nothing to do with modern Army defeat.

 

i think if we talk about possible conflict where the F22 should establish Air dominance, can be within the next 20 to 30 years, as the next generation competition similar ATF, comes 2030.

 

until them, there are a lot Su35, T50, J20, J31 out there, 187 F22 are nothing for a global power, they can deploy maybe 2/3 of it (not counting in that losese can't be replaced by new one), the Argument for the 1000+ F35, will see how many finally been bought, or can be affordable for the related Nation's,, with his short range, they have to be stationed, or refueled quite near to enemy territory, a sitting duck, as this are the first targets besides AWACS and communication in a conflict.

 

Ok let me draw a picture for you. Anyone taking on the U.S. has to go against 400 plus F-15's of various levels of upgrade, 1,200 F-16's, 3-400 F-18s, and then to boot: 187 5th Generation F-22 Raptors. There are also 100 F-35s but they aren't really what i'd call operational.

The Russians on the other hand field a motley crew of 50 odd gen 4.5. 4.5+ fighters of dubious operational strength. 300 or so Flankers mostly of the original S variety, and 250 some Mig-29's.

The Chinese field 400 or so regular Gen 4 fighters of all types (J11,10/Su-27)and only 70ish Su-30.

 

This means that the US air force is fielding nearly as many F-22's as the Russian are fielding Su-27 or Mig 29 individually. They are also fielding more than 2-3 times as many 5TH Gen fighters that feature stealth, super-cruise, thrust-vectoring etc, as their opposing force is fielding Gen 4.5 aircraft! So far as "global power" is concerned no, 187 raptors cant be fielded everywhere, but neither can the other sides Gen 4+, and there are enough Raptors to massively tilt the balance of any fighter battle wherever they are needed.

As an example, During big week in February 1944, 70 odd Mustangs operating from Two fighter groups were enough to HUGELY tilt the odds in favor of the Americans even though they were far from the most common type at that point in the war.

Also, the F-22's abilities reach far beyond its piecemeal combat value in fighter vs fighter combat. Imaging for instance if a force of only 10 F-22's bolster a force a 100 F-15s vs 100 or so Flankers of the Su-30 variety. If those two Raptors sneak in and take out the AWACS for OPFOR, that alone would most likely have a bigger impact on its own than if the Raptors shot down a whole squadron.

[six.dof]

@ USARStarkey, totally agree, but four things

 

1. this is today, how about in 15 years?

 

2. it is unlikely that someone attack US, where to park all this stuff for example in Japan or Taiwan?

 

3. AIR defense system in the east advanched a lot in in the last 30 years, a real picture can be only with a full Air defence scenario, maybe you draw your picture on a possible situation around Taiwan, how this would look like, today?

the reality is that no equal power fought since 70 years.

 

4. 1944, Me262 was avaliable, superior to existent technology, but still can't make a difference against the high qty of conventual technology at the time, similar as 187 F22 in a conflict with the same dimension today.

[GGTharos]

@ USARStarkey, totally agree, but four things

 

1. this is today, how about in 15 years?

 

What about in 15 years? The F-22's and F-35's will have also received upgrades.

 

3. AIR defense system in the east advanched a lot in in the last 30 years, a real picture can be only with a full Air defence scenario, maybe you draw your picture on a possible situation around Taiwan, how this would look like, today?

the reality is that no equal power fought since 70 years.

 

Air defense systems advanced a lot in the west as well, to the point where the impractical missile shield is now becoming practical.

 

4. 1944, Me262 was avaliable, superior to existent technology, but still can't make a difference against the high qty of conventual technology at the time, similar as 187 F22 in a conflict with the same dimension today.

 

That isn't anywhere close to a useful comparison. The Me262 was evolutionary, not revolutionary. It was a temperamental aircraft with speed as it's only advantage. The F-22 is a high-exchange rate, highly effective fighter that can and will destroy many opposition aircraft for every raptor that is lost. There is no air force out there that can bring enough aircraft into play to deal with the high-low mix of F-22's and F-35's.

[GGTharos]

until 2030, i guess there are a lot more than 40 Su37 globally, and none of others is quite optimistic, if you see the finance power of China and India, and the economy situation of the country's in the F35 club, i think is not sure the F35 will be ever in big qty on the sky.

 

We're talking about now, quit moving the goal posts.

 

but there will be no more than 187 F22, - the lost in trainning.

That's ok, it'll be replaced by 6th generation fighter eventually, or the US will go down the drain and we won't have to think about it at all.

 

to make a attack on a hostile Airspace with a F35, which is defended by Systems like S300, S400,EWR like P14 Oborona and P18 Spoon Rest D , A50, Mig31, Su27,Su30,Su35, T50, the refueling in Air have to be done in quite a distance, or stainoned within the range of SRBM ( F35 combat range around 600nm in best case)

Refueling has never been an issue for the USAF.

 

the above Aircrafts i mentioned, have at least double combat radius as the F35,

No, they don't. Now you're making things up.

 

and Weaopons like R33, R37, K100 on the Mig31, will make it difficult to defend AWACS and Tanker, if they have to come close to the border, to support the "short" range of the F35.

The R-37 has barely entered service if at all, and the K100 still has a long way to go. On the other hand, an F-22 can fly right up to its opposition and whack it. Those wanting to get close enough to any HVAAs will have to deal with the defensive screen first, and it's not going to be a cakewalk - nor are the HVAAs helpless.

 

aditional we should think for the technology imrovement the next 30 year, of course on both sides, but the chance that Stealth be defeated by technology, is a realistic thread, as VHF envolve rapidly, is just a question of time, until VHF can be used to guide SAM, instead to give a rough position.

 

So why won't stealth evolve to defeat VHF radars? FYI, the inability to guide a missile to target with a VHF radar is a physical limitation. Getting around it directly would be magic. The best you can do is use it to cue a different sensor.

[USARStarkey]

@ USARStarkey, totally agree, but four things

 

1. this is today, how about in 15 years?

 

2. it is unlikely that someone attack US, where to park all this stuff for example in Japan or Taiwan?

 

3. AIR defense system in the east advanched a lot in in the last 30 years, a real picture can be only with a full Air defence scenario, maybe you draw your picture on a possible situation around Taiwan, how this would look like, today?

the reality is that no equal power fought since 70 years.

 

4. 1944, Me262 was avaliable, superior to existent technology, but still can't make a difference against the high qty of conventual technology at the time, similar as 187 F22 in a conflict with the same dimension today.

 

Your point on the 262 is valid ill give you that. Your point on 15 years is a what if that is for a different forum thread. Personally, while I agree with GGTharos that a high low mix of F-35 and F-22 will be more than adequate, I am a proponent of more F-22's AND F-35s. Ideally for me, about 500 Raptors and 1200 F-35s would be perfect IMO. But thats not what were going to get. Were going to get 200ish Raptors and a very large number of 35s theoretically, which will be more than enough to curb stop anyone.

 

Your point regarding Taiwan makes me think you read the 2010 Rand survey on Pacific defense. They made some decent points in that survey but failed to take into consideration a great many more, for example they seem to assume in that scenario that the US will be fighting alone. The most important thing though is that you are simply stating a problem that would exist FOR ALL aircraft in a Pacific air battle. That area is huge, for everyone. The united states could pick any aircraft in the world an still have basing issues etc. That has nothing to do with the planes and everything to do with tactics and geography. The same could be said of difficulties faced AND overcome during WW2.

[six.dof]

Hmm, okay, back to facts

 

1. F117 shoot down in the 90's by a very old SAM system, how ever they do it.

2. only 195 F22 totally produced, productionline closed and gone.

3. F35 with massive political problems in the F35 club country's

4. F22 be defeated in dogfight several times by 4+ generatio jets ( dosent matter the situation is realistic or not)

5. AMRAM has a quite low score for BVR

6. no one knows the reallity, as the information that be accesable are filtert and modifyed to serve different purposes, only pilots, and operators upward knows this reallity, and they don't tell for sure.

7. there was no fight of equal power the last 70 years

8. military research and equipment is expensive, not every country will remain on the top, as the economy goes down in western country, other things goes more important, other country can spend mor money.

9. one Aircraft type alone will not make the difference in a conflict, if equal power fights.

10. there is no reliable information, how good Stealth works in real combat enviroment with a technical equal oponent, as this information are not avaliable.

[USARStarkey]

Ok, so I'm not sure what or who your responding to with those 10 points. But here are 10 more.

 

1. How they did it matters. You cannot remove context from something and expect and accurate analysis of the end result.

 

2. This has only been said about 50 times now. That is 187 more Raptors and than anyone else has. Also, in the event of protracted war, it would be ludicrous to assume that more would not be produced until something better appeared.

 

3. Your point? This is true of almost every weapons system not labeled as "asymmetrical" in western nations. The plane is still being built, and as of now, in large numbers.

 

4. The F-22 has defeated Gen 4 fighters many more times over even when out numbered. Also, how does the situation not matter? lol you cannot actually be serious.

 

5. There have not been enough AMRAAM's fired in anger to support that mathematically. Furthermore, Pk is massively misleading as a measure of effectiveness. And just as a note, F-15's with the Hugely undermodeled Amraams we get in DCS wipe the floor with Flankers nearly every time.

 

6. So....then your point is moot and you needn't have posted at all on the thread or listed any of these other things. You are the second person in here to have tried to simultaneously say everything is moot, and draw definitive conclusions at the same time.

 

7. Yes. This is a theoretical discussion.

 

8. This demonstrates your ignorance of the worlds economy as much as your incompatible logic. Just because person A loses money does not mean person B gets rich. Furthermore, there are many other factors to this. The science behind advanced equipment is generally known, but the TACIT knowledge is not. Aside from funding, this is a major inhibitor to developing advanced equipment. The Mig-29s Radar is a perfect example of a lack of TACIT knowledge preventing a reasonable development deadline.

 

9. 1 aircraft type alone has changed the course of a war multiple times in history. Also, if two powers are "equal" that would imply that they have either identical or equivalent equipment or a massive disparity in quality vs quantity, which renders your point moot as we are discussing the effect of disproportionate equipment and numbers.

 

10. Once again you insist that there are no answers to be found....after insisting prcisely the opposite. You seem to be of the opinion that either A: Stealth is useless or inconsequential. Or B: Nobody knows. Which is it exactly? :P

[TAW_Blaze]

1. F117 shoot down in the 90's by a very old SAM system, how ever they do it.

 

My god are we still stuck at this? You call one aircraft shot down out of 850+ sorties directly above your air defense effective? I'd call that LUCKY.

[JNASova]

Hmm, okay, back to facts

 

1. F117 shoot down in the 90's by a very old SAM system, how ever they do it.

2. only 195 F22 totally produced, productionline closed and gone.

3. F35 with massive political problems in the F35 club country's

4. F22 be defeated in dogfight several times by 4+ generatio jets ( dosent matter the situation is realistic or not)

5. AMRAM has a quite low score for BVR

6. no one knows the reallity, as the information that be accesable are filtert and modifyed to serve different purposes, only pilots, and operators upward knows this reallity, and they don't tell for sure.

7. there was no fight of equal power the last 70 years

8. military research and equipment is expensive, not every country will remain on the top, as the economy goes down in western country, other things goes more important, other country can spend mor money.

9. one Aircraft type alone will not make the difference in a conflict, if equal power fights.

10. there is no reliable information, how good Stealth works in real combat enviroment with a technical equal oponent, as this information are not avaliable.

Thats right.You can add complicated and expesive maintance of the F 22,wich "paint job" is not water resistance.So,it is suny day fighter plane.

Edited May 19, 2014 by =JNA=Sova

[BronzeBuddha]

This thread deserves to be locked and deleted due to sheer stupidity. In fact, it should never have been made in the first place due to the ridiculous premise. And =JNA=Sova and a few others, I have no idea whether you guys are being serious or not.

[*Rage*]

But part of me wants to see how far they can still go...

[Winfield_Gold]

Well it's good to know the guy the pilot of the F 117 and the guy who fired the missiles are now friends.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20209770

 

and in his own words

 

http://voiceofrussia.com/2012_03_24/69369732/

 

should name this thread, "F-117 shot down with little information regarding the SU-35 and a comparative essay on the F-117 VS F-22"

[RIPTIDE]

But part of me wants to see how far they can still go...

It's got another 30 pages at least...

[six.dof]

I am out here,

as i understand that this topic will always have different opinion, and lead to nowhere, as no one can proofe his point with hard evidence.

[Angel101]

I am out here,

as i understand that this topic will always have different opinion, and lead to nowhere, as no one can proofe his point with hard evidence.

 

The trees doesn't let you see the forest.