MiG-21 in historical context

[mpdugas]

It would be very interesting to be able to create scenarios within DCS world that attempted to emulate the historical era in which the MiG-21 was introduced.

 

For example, would it be possible for a 3rd party developer to create a DCS addon module that simulates the GCI of the 1950's Soviet Union?

 

I am guessing that the answer is 'yes', because airframe radar modules have to work within the DCS world, "seeing" and reacting to various 3D models in the game world (both airborne and ground-based) so I am thinking that 3D module radar equipment would likewise work.

 

Maybe something like the SAMSIM ported to DCS world.

 

I would very much like to know if DCS world is granular enough to change the environment itself as well as the components within the environment (like tank or helicopters, etc.)?

 

If that were possible, then the P51 and FW-190 could meet in their historical era, as could the MiG-21 and its natural foes (e.g. the B52/47/58 and F-104) go to battle in their historical era.

 

I don't think that the geographical area for employing something like that matters too much; the Crimea should work.

 

Then the MiG-21 could realize its designers intent as a point-defense interceptor, much like it was employed in North Viet Nam or originally around the vast perimeter of the Soviet Union.

 

There, it was part of an integrated ADS that centered on GCI...a MiG-21 without GCI is severely limited, because the machine itself lacks sufficient autonomy to carry out the full intercept.

 

As it is today, the MiG-21 in a modern environment is not the same machine as the MiG-21 in the late 1950's. In the era of its introduction, it was quite successful against the opponents it was designed to confront.

 

I think DCS world has a large potential; does the scenario editor permit such historical recreations?

[-Rudel-]

You need to remember this is the Bis variant. You need a 70's-90's time frame.

[mpdugas]

MiG-21 in context

 

You need to remember this is the Bis variant. You need a 70's-90's time frame.

 

I would be absolutely STUNNED if the Mig-21 F and MF weren't also modeled, particularly since the F version is such a classic maneuvering machine...some called it a hot-rod, which I believe would be a very enjoyable version to fly!!

 

But I am not complaining; I am sooo pleased to be able to enjoy the MiG-21...the closest I ever got, in the sim world, was the Captain Sim version for MSFS.

[streakeagle]

I love all of the versions of the MiG-21 and would be happy to fly F, PF, PFM, PFMA, S, SM, SMT, etc. But the bis was the last and best and still operational, so it is most certainly a fit for the FC3 90s time frame and a great ride that I will enjoy flying.

[Dolphin887]

For example, would it be possible for a 3rd party developer to create a DCS addon module that simulates the GCI of the 1950's Soviet Union?

 

That is possible, however, it's a huge project: not only that many guidance algorithms have to be created (which is pretty complex task since we are talking about 3D vectors along with 3D objects orientation of each object), but that also require voice messages recordings (at least 2, Russian and English) and voice support implementation. Extension of radio messages menu also. It could be done as a separate project, and development would last at least few months.

 

 

I would very much like to know if DCS world is granular enough to change the environment itself as well as the components within the environment (like tank or helicopters, etc.)?

 

Software can change in whichever direction. Problem is to define priorities. Changes (even small) cause domino effect: things are connected. Thus, anything new has to be incrementally introduced.

 

There, it was part of an integrated ADS that centered on GCI...a MiG-21 without GCI is severely limited, because the machine itself lacks sufficient autonomy to carry out the full intercept....I think DCS world has a large potential; does the scenario editor permit such historical recreations?

 

Players are often forgetting that other units in the DCS have their own "intelligence" and sensors/weapons definitions which are tailored for a modern battle theater. Aircraft sensors and maneuverability are usually better than in reality, and this was necessary in order to support a game-play. For example F-4 and F-5 are very agile, most notably on low speeds along the longitudinal axis (roll); radars are at max efficiency all the time within their FOV. Awareness of the AI is also very high. But this is a game and it is normal. Reality is much different. To change everything in DCS would require rebuilding many things.

 

With MiG-21BIS players will have opportunity to see how it really was to sit in a 2nd/3rd generation tactical fighter. It will be hard, that is for sure.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Dolphin887
Zakatak note on 21 classification

[MauganRa84]

With MiG-21BIS players will have opportunity to see how it really was to sit in a 2nd generation tactical fighter. It will be hard, that is for sure.

 

And how can man die better, than facing fearful odds...

 

:pilotfly:

[Zakatak]

Isn't the MiG-21bis a 3rd generation fighter?

[Dolphin887]

Isn't the MiG-21bis a 3rd generation fighter?

 

You might be right, it could be, depending on which definition someone is using for classification. I have never found a common, officially accepted definition of mil jet aircraft generations. Early 21 surely belongs to 2nd while later to 3rd generation (to some extent). Maybe the compromise would be to classify 21BIS as early third generation.

[MBot]

I have been entertaining the tought about creating a campaign for the MiG-21bis, but the big problem is the map. There are basicaly no halfway probable scenarios to fight the MiG-21bis over the current map, since it is simply missing the NATO side of the border where all the ground targets and take-off locations of the opposing side are. There would be the option of doing only air-defense missions with NATO spawning and de-spawning in the air, but that creates huge problems with AI and their RTB logic. Of course you could always give NATO some airbases and ground on Soviet terrain, but stuff like that has always been a turn-off for me. The incredible attention to detail with simulating the aircraft and flying Mikey-Mouse scenarios doesn't go together :)

 

It is a shame because the theater wouldn't be that bad. The units of the Transcaucaus Front would have seen combat against the Turkish 3rd Army in case of a large war. The Turkish Airforce had interesting old aircraft up to the 90s (F-4E, F-5A, F-100D, F-104). In addition, the USAF 401st TFW likely would have deployed F-4E and later F-16C to Incirlik. These would provide an interesting opposition to go against in the MiG-21bis. While the Transcaucasus Military District didn't enjoy a MiG-21bis equipped unit (841st GvIAP with MiG-21?early? at Kobuleti until 1980, 982nd IAP with MiG-21SM at Vaziani until 1978, 313rd ORAP with MiG-21R at Vaziani until 1984), it is easy to imagine that another MiG-21bis unit from the interiour would have deployed to that front in times of tension. For example the 145. IAP from the Ukraine or the 927. IAP from Belorussia (both made deployments to Kabul during the Afghanistan War).

 

So while we have all the bases of the Soviet Transcaucasus Front, we completely miss the Turkish side to do anything interesting with it. That weird theater design left me puzzeled since Lock On.

[Scrim]

That seems rather contradictory. I get that you may feel it's unrealistic to have Western adversaries out of Eastern bases, but the Mig-21 is an interceptor that was built around the concept of downing NATO strategic bombers over the USSR using GCI. If we're going with that realism, then surely Mig-21s over Turkey would be equally unrealistic?

[Dolphin887]

I have been entertaining the tought about creating a campaign for the MiG-21bis, but the big problem is the map.

 

True. I attached the (early) theater setup I'm using for last 6 days for the campaign in English. No too many options, but still. Pink circle is the combat range for 21 from Kobuleti (takeoff - rush to the edge on ~MIL POW- stay there 5-15min - get back). Very difficult terrain, complex for helicopters units simulation (forward FARPs, just 2-3 mountain passages), ground units possible to simulate in later stages. Limited options for NAVY, especially reciprocal. This theater will change as the campaign develops. I hope I'll have enough time to do campaign on Russian, for the other side.

[MBot]

That seems rather contradictory. I get that you may feel it's unrealistic to have Western adversaries out of Eastern bases, but the Mig-21 is an interceptor that was built around the concept of downing NATO strategic bombers over the USSR using GCI. If we're going with that realism, then surely Mig-21s over Turkey would be equally unrealistic?

 

The vast majority of Soviet MiG-21bis were in service with the VVS (Tactical Aviation) and not the PVO (Air Defense Aviation). VVS' mission was to cover and support operations of the Red Army. In the context of the current map, that would mean covering the 9th Combined Arms Army's advance into Turkey and defending the front area from NATO tactical aviation. And obviously the Turkish and US aircraft need a place to take off and land from.

 

The only PVO unit with MiG-21bis was in the Far East. By the time the Bis was entering service, PVO generally had dedicated interceptors such as Su-15 and MiG-25.

[Exorcet]

The vast majority of Soviet MiG-21bis were in service with the VVS (Tactical Aviation) and not the PVO (Air Defense Aviation). VVS' mission was to cover and support operations of the Red Army. In the context of the current map, that would mean covering the 9th Combined Arms Army's advance into Turkey and defending the front area from NATO tactical aviation. And obviously the Turkish and US aircraft need a place to take off and land from.

 

The only PVO unit with MiG-21bis was in the Far East. By the time the Bis was entering service, PVO generally had dedicated interceptors such as Su-15 and MiG-25.

Just make the context that you got there late. NATO has already taken Georgia. By the time you as a pilot get there, the task it go take it back. Still might be a bit iffy with NATO basing everything Georgia, but it works and there's no getting around that until the map is expanded or we can add airports at will.