DCS WW2 fighter comparison

[tempestglen]

Dora first flight mission--- 18 Dec.1944 by Second Gruppe

Dora first meeting enemy(heavy bombers)--- 23-24 Dec. 1944 Christmas Eve, :) 2 days later, german pilots found that P51(probably 21lbs) outpaced and outdived(accelaration in dive)? their brand new Dora(majoriy of them low boost). In a level accelaration, Dora should outpermanced P51 due to higher climb rate. Increasing boost of Dora only slightly improve dive acceleration which is mainly dertermined by aerodynamic and weight.

 

So both Dora/K4 should be regard as a/c in 1945 scenario, to fight against 21lbs Spit XIV,25lsb IX, 11-13lbs Tempy whose 115/150 fuel was delivered 2 Jan 1945 for RAF 2nd tactic force in continent.

 

 

18 December: The First Gruppe reported a strength of 52 190As and 28 Fw 190 D-9抯� The Second Gruppe flew its first mission in its Dora-9s, but failed to contact the enemy.

 

23 December: The Second Gruppe flew its first Fw 190D-9 mission.

 

24 December: The first combat mission for the new Fw 190 D-9s of the First Gruppe was an attempted interception of the heavy bombers.

 

25 December: The First Gruppe reported in the morning that only nine of its Focke-Wulfs were serviceable. The Stab and the 2nd and 3rd Staffeln were taken off operations to train in the Fw 190 D-9.

III/JG 54 returned to the combat zone, still led by Hptm. Robert Weiss, a member of JG 26 back in the glory day on the Kanalfront. [匽 The unit had been built up to its full strength of sixty-eight FW 190D-9s.

 

26 December: The biggest news the returning pilots had for their comrades was the Mustang抯 superiority in speed and acceleration to their Dora 9s.

 

27 December: Despite its long absence from the front for training, there were still doubts as to the combat-worthiness of III/JG 54. Today a familiarization flight over M黱ster basin was ordered for all four of the Staffeln. [匽 III/JG 54 lost five aircraft destroyed and one damaged; three pilots were killed and two were injured.

29 December: The First Gruppe stood down to conduct intensive training in their Fw 190D-9s; 120 flights were made... The Green Hearts were fully engaged today; this would go down in the history of III/JG 54 as its schwarze Tag (black day).

Edited June 20, 2014 by tempestglen

[MiloMorai]

Also that I./JG27 lost a G-10 (151885) 14/04/45, so it was not completely equipped with K-4s.

[LukeFF]

Dora first flight mission--- 18 Dec.1944 by Second Gruppe

 

Second Gruppe of what JG? The first combat mission of the D-9 was at the very end of September 1944 by III./JG 54.

[Sharpe]

Second Gruppe of what JG? The first combat mission of the D-9 was at the very end of September 1944 by III./JG 54.

 

 

In this case, JG26.

[Barrett_g]

I asked this earlier in the thread but it got lost in some discussion....

 

I have yet to try the P-51 so I don't know (computer is too old to run it).... DCS was originally a modern jet sim.... Does it simulate the air over flight controls that is generated by the prop?

 

Even when a prop plane is stalled and is hanging in the air (0mph indicated airspeed) it still has some degree of control because the prop is pushing air over its flight controls.

 

Most jets, when stalled and hanging in the air, have less control. When at 0mph there is no airflow over flight controls as any thrust is coming out the tailpipe behind them.

 

You can notice quite a big difference even in RC flight. Prop planes have more control at slower speeds compared to jets... You have to keep your speed up on jets.

 

Any ideas if this is modelled?

[Kurfürst]

I know your site and williams' are "eye for eye".:D

 

Well that's probably because Mike's articles is full of... issues. ;)

 

18lbs Spit XIV came into service in Jan. 1944 and while 109K4 at Nov.

 

More like March 1944 and October 1944. The January 1944 "introduction" of the XIV amounted little more than someone at the Air Ministry writing down XIV next to a Squadrons with a pencil. There is a world of difference between that and service introduction though. At this point most of the RAF's Spitfire Sqds were still equipped with.... the Mark V, they just started to introduce the Mark IX in numbers.

 

Spitfires always seem to take a lot of time between someone designating a Sqn as a XIV Squadron on paper in January, but with the very slow pace of production it took them months to fully equip even a couple of Sqns with the new Mark and re-train to it. As for operational engagements (save V-1s), they are virtually absent until the automn when the XIV Squadrons were slowly transferred to the continent but were thus stripped of 150 grade supplies, only available in the UK (and ironically, largely restricted to the USAAF). The first three XIV Sqns weren't wheels down on the continent (foul flying weather was also responsible) until October-November IIRC. After that, together with Tempests they did took a lion's share from the RAF's 2nd TAF's a-2-a kills, but until that, IMO their results of shooting down (manned) LW were so utterly marginal that it doesn't even worth mentioning in the shadow of the bloodletting between the USAAF and LW in the same period.

 

Until the end of 1944, only about 300 XIVs were produced against some 856 K-4s (which started only in September but at a much higher pace). So as far as operational combat aircraft engaging in air combat, they were, for all practical purposes, appearing at the very same time.

 

Is that fair to compare 18lbs Spit XIV with almost one year later's K4?

 

As noted above, they were combat contemporaries for all practical reasons. Combat debut in numbers came at exactly the same time, in the autumn of 1944.

 

No, what would be fair would be to compare the 18lbs Spit IX with almost one-and-a-half year later's K4, because that's what was facing each other in the automn of 1944 mostly. And well, of course, the MW boosted G models.

 

It's unfair to include 1944 Nov-Dec a/c just like 109K4 in "1944 scenario". When was K4 first combat? If an aircraft joined the army in 31st Dec 1944, you still regard it as 1944 plane? OK, "1944 scenario" itself not suitable.

 

No, of course if it was a Dec 31st plane its not a 1944 plane. Thing is, the K-4 came into service with units in the West in October 1944, and in very considerable numbers. Some 150 - 200 were delivered in October already, and frontline strenght was a steady 200 in the last months of 1944. The first known losses are end of october/start of November, I strongly believe the first actual bloodletting was during the huge (and very pricey) 2nd November engagement.

 

We all know from Jan to Oct 1944, there were no combat history of Dora/k4 in Luftwaffe while 25lbs IX and 21 lbs XIV (based in Britain)shot down a Ju88(plus many V1s) and 25lbs Mustang III shot down 14+ German planes.

 

Uhm, the XIVs so called combat history (as far as against manned aircraft go, as they DID shot down some 300 V-1s, for which the people of London were very thankful) until the autumn of 1944 is virtually non existent. One Ju 88 claimed to be shot down, really? What else - perhaps a Storch too in 9 months? Absolutely occasional shotdowns, uneventful patrols over England and in safe zones, that does not read as a frontline fighter to me.

 

The two British boosted Mustang III Squadrons were operatially marginal as well. Their highlight was the single combat when they managed to surprise JG 26 (? IIRC) during take off (Mike's site can be economical with the details, isnt't it) and shot down a good number of aircraft from advantage. Then pretty much nothing. The other Mustang Sqn one spent all its time over the North Sea for some obscure reason, meeting enemy aircraft only once I believe, maybe scoring success even that single time.

 

Yes, VEAO team are modeling 21lbs bubble canopy CW Spitfire XIV.

 

Good news :) Its a little price though.

 

When 109K4s came, that was very late 1944 and 1945 spring, so 21lbs Spit XIV, 11-13lbs Tempest MKV, and 25lbs Spit IX are their contemporaneous opponents.

 

K-4s were in very active service in significant numbers in late 1944, about as large as Tempests and XIVs combined in fact. Neither the XIV or the Tempest saw much anti-air action until "very late 1944 and 1945 spring" either, so that makes them contemporaries in my book.

 

Also, before February-March 1945 neither IXs, XIVs had run on higher boost than +18 with the 2nd TAF. They did not have the fuel for it, as 150 grade was in short supply and was needed by the USAAF. The first clues of the changeover to 150 grade and associated higher turn up at this point. Coincidentally, that is also the exact same period when fully rated (1.98ata, 2000 PS using the German equivalent of 150 grade fuel, the Green C-3 type) K-4s were also cleared and began converting for the high boost.

 

So in short, either you have a pre spring 1945 scenario with lower boosted models (+18 lbs IXs, 1.8ata K-4), or you have spring 1945 scenario with higher boosted models (+25 lbs IXs, 1.98ata K-4 etc.). I believe though, given the Normandy map and all, that the scenario is a late 1944 one, so, no higher boosted models.

 

I'd love to have those latter though, as otherwise the standard +18 lbs Niners really stand very little chance against these late war aircraft that they historically faced.

[Kurfürst]

Unhelpful generalisations by Kurfurst, concerning "technical troubles" and "lethal accidents", with no evidence put forward to substantiate these claims.

 

So are you claiming that you have never, ever seen the evidence for these technical troubles and fatal accidents?

 

 

Approved, but, in the chaotic transport & supply situation that prevailed for the Luftwaffe, there is no evidence whatsoever....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense

 

that the four K-4 Gruppen ( I./JG 27; III./JG 27; III./JG 53; IV./JG 53) that were supposed to use 1.98 ata ever made the transition; .

 

Where is the evidence that the SINGLE XIV Wing that were supposed to use +21 lbs boost ever made the transition?

 

nor has any evidence ever been supplied that K-4s of these Gruppen used higher boost on operations.

 

Nor has any evidence ever been supplied that of this single XIV Wing of the 2nd TAF ever used higher boost on operations. Nor for the single or two Mark IX Wing for that matter. There is not a single combat account of a XIV or IX pilot ever mentioning the use of high boost against an enemy aircraft. Of course there may be some still. Its just not found yet... in like, 15 years of desperate search. :P

 

Note that nobody probably ever saw German pilots recalling boost ratings ever (which would probably made little sense to do so for them with the automatic controls), so if you go by that, I suppose this proves German pilots never used anything higher than 1 ata.

 

Oh wait, that's obvious rubbish.

 

Note that II./JG 11 did make some operational trials of 1.98 ata in late 1944

 

Note that half of IX Wing did make some operational trials of +25 lbs in late 1944, too. Apparently, they never saw any combat.

 

it is also worth noting that III./JG 27, one of the units slated to use 1.98 ata, shot down its last aircraft on March 21, the day after the approval to use 1.98 ata was given.)

 

Interesting claim, without a source. Yeah I guess they just spent the rest of the war taking a nap. :D

 

III./JG 27 bases:

 

18.3.45 - 29.3.45Gütersloh Bf 109K

29.3.45 - 8.4.45 Goslar Bf 109K

8.4.45 - 11.4.45 Halberstadt Bf 109K

11.4.45 - 4.45 Grossenhain Bf 109K

4.45 - 20.4.45 Prague-Gbell Bf 109K

20.4.45 - 2.5.45 Bad Aibling Bf 109K

2.5.45 - 5.45 Salzburg Bf 109K

5.45 - 8.5.45 Saalbach Bf 109K

 

And in all that time, they weren't shooting down a single aircraft, being one of the four main 109 Gruppen of the West. :megalol:

 

In total about 79 K-4s might have used 1.98 ata, or about 0.079% of the 1,001 109s available on 9 April 1945.

 

Nope, it four Gruppen with a strenght of about 150 109s in strenght (which were moving up and down of course - the normal established strenght for four 1944 LW fighter Gruppen would be about 270 aircraft) , which were ALL the Bf 109s remaining in the Western front by the Spring of 1945. The rest were on the eastern front.

 

Thing is, in the Spring of 1945, if you met a 109K in Western front in the late March - April May of 1945, it was to be a fully rated (1.98 ata) one.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Kurfürst

[tempestglen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_190_operational_history?oldid=0

 

Funny stuff. Tempest MKV and Dora are even in a 1v1 dogfight.

But in a high speed dive/zoom I believe Tempy is quite better.

 

Comparison: Fw 190D and Hawker Tempest[edit]

 

Shortly after the war the British became interested in the performance and evaluation of the advanced German Fw 190 D-13. While at Flensburg the British Disarmament Wing wanted to see how this fighter would perform against one of their best, a Hawker Tempest. Squadron Leader Evans approached Major Heinz Lange and asked him to fly a mock combat against one of their pilots. Lange accepted, even though he had only 10 flights in a D-9.[77] The mock dogfight was conducted at an altitude of 10,000 ft (3,000 m), with only enough fuel for the flight and no ammunition. In the end the machines were evenly matched. Major Lange assessed that the outcome of such a contest greatly depended on the skills of the individual pilot. At the time Lange was not aware that he was not flying a D-13 but rather a D-9. The same "Yellow 10" (Wk. Nr. 836017) that was previously assigned to Geschwaderkommodore Franz Götz was used in this evaluation. "Yellow 10" was further subjected to mock combat when on 25 June 1945 Oberleutnant Günther Josten was asked to fly a comparison flight against another Tempest.[77]

[Kurfürst]

The Tempest and the Dora are very closely matched, and quite similar in performance profile, too.

 

Personally, the Tempest is my favourite late war (Western) Allied fighter. :) I hope we see it one day in DCS! :)

[tempestglen]

I asked this earlier in the thread but it got lost in some discussion....

 

I have yet to try the P-51 so I don't know (computer is too old to run it).... DCS was originally a modern jet sim.... Does it simulate the air over flight controls that is generated by the prop?

 

Even when a prop plane is stalled and is hanging in the air (0mph indicated airspeed) it still has some degree of control because the prop is pushing air over its flight controls.

 

Most jets, when stalled and hanging in the air, have less control. When at 0mph there is no airflow over flight controls as any thrust is coming out the tailpipe behind them.

 

You can notice quite a big difference even in RC flight. Prop planes have more control at slower speeds compared to jets... You have to keep your speed up on jets.

 

Any ideas if this is modelled?

 

Correct, I believe DCS will model this. Is this difficult? In il2 series I can get some control when hanging in the air with 0 IAS.

[Sharpe]

The Tempest and the Dora are very closely matched, and quite similar in performance profile, too.

 

Personally, the Tempest is my favourite late war (Western) Allied fighter. :) I hope we see it one day in DCS! :)

 

Who knows; if the North Weald restoration is carried through....

[tempestglen]

The Tempest and the Dora are very closely matched, and quite similar in performance profile, too.

 

Personally, the Tempest is my favourite late war (Western) Allied fighter. :) I hope we see it one day in DCS! :)

 

I'v spent most of time in flying Dora and Tempy,of course in il2. I prefer Tempy/Dora over P51 in a dogfight.

 

[DB 605]

The Tempest and the Dora are very closely matched, and quite similar in performance profile, too.

 

Personally, the Tempest is my favourite late war (Western) Allied fighter. :) I hope we see it one day in DCS! :)

 

+1 to that, easily my favourite too on allied fighters. Would have been better choice to this company than Spit IX imho...

Still, i wish next plane to DCS ww2 would be some twin engine aircraft, preferably bomber.

Edited June 20, 2014 by DB 605

[tempestglen]

 

So in short, either you have a pre spring 1945 scenario with lower boosted models (+18 lbs IXs, 1.8ata K-4), or you have spring 1945 scenario with higher boosted models (+25 lbs IXs, 1.98ata K-4 etc.). I believe though, given the Normandy map and all, that the scenario is a late 1944 one, so, no higher boosted models.

 

I'd love to have those latter though, as otherwise the standard +18 lbs Niners really stand very little chance against these late war aircraft that they historically faced.

 

It's ok to build a plane set below:

 

1944 Oct- 1945 Spring: 18lbs Spit IX, XIV, 11lbs Tempy vs low boost K4/D9.

 

1945 Spring - VE: higher boost for both sides

 

Don't forget higher boost only improves performance above FTH, and Spitfire XIV's role is to fly high and cover other RAF a/c, there is no difference between 18lbs and 21lbs above 4000m.

 

We need a 11lbs tempy which is runing on 100/130 fuel not 115/150. The Tempy's role is just like Dora. Yes, in late years RAF was not mainforce fighting Luftwaffe anymore, and 2nd RAF only need to cope with a portion of K4/D9, other k4s go for USAAF.:D

 

 

http://www.hawkertempest.se/index.php/piloter/victories

 

Tempest shot down hundreds of german planes(200? I havn't count), not so many as USAAF did but not negligible. It seems that it was Fairbanks(ACE) first shot down Dora at 22 Feb 1945. Any ealier combat between Dora and Tempy? Another famous tempy pilot Clostermann got others Dora.

 

It is said that Tempy sqn finnaly got 8:1 ratio on Luftwaffe when air to air. Therefore 20-30 Tempests lost due to german planes.

 

22 Feb Fw190D 2 274 S/L D.C. Fairbanks (EJ648) Rheine airfield III/JG 54

 

2 April Fw190D-9 1 56 F/L P.H. Clostermann US-G (NV968) Aldhorn airfield See note no.

Edited June 20, 2014 by tempestglen

[Alicatt]

Still, i wish next plane to DCS ww2 would be some twin engine aircraft, preferably bomber.

Yep and built by Westland :) I wish someone would give it a whirl....

[MiloMorai]

Second Gruppe of what JG? The first combat mission of the D-9 was at the very end of September 1944 by III./JG 54.

 

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg26.html

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg26.html

[tempestglen]

Kurfust， someone said Luftwaffe had two type of propellers, one optimized for speed and the other for climb. What's your proof?

[MiloMorai]

The Typhoon &Tempest Story by Thomas/Shores list all the Tempest claims and losses.

 

The Tempest claimed 240 EAs.

[DB 605]

Yep and built by Westland :) I wish someone would give it a whirl....

 

Well i was thinking something from Junkers...maybe 88, 188 or how about 388? That would be supercool 1945 bomber :smoke:

 

[MiloMorai]

As the only proof Kurfurst can supply for 1.98ata boost is a copy of an order stating that 1.98ata was cleared for operational use, then this

 

 

should suffice for 21lb and 25lb boost.:)

[Kurfürst]

Kurfust， someone said Luftwaffe had two type of propellers, one optimized for speed and the other for climb. What's your proof?

 

I am not sure what you are refferring at, but of course its possible to optimize propellers to either speed or climb; as far as the modelled 109K-4 (which shared the prop with the /AS and G-10 types), its quite clear from test data that it was optimized for high altitudes, at the expense of low altitude performance (both speed and climb).

 

Later (projected) prop types would have yielded some improvements in high altitude speeds (727 kph with one type, 741 kph with another).

[Kurfürst]

It's ok to build a plane set below:

 

1944 Oct- 1945 Spring: 18lbs Spit IX, XIV, 11lbs Tempy vs low boost K4/D9.

 

1945 Spring - VE: higher boost for both sides

 

Yup - though I believe the D-9 introduced the higher boost (MW50) model practically immediately after its introduction.

 

Don't forget higher boost only improves performance above FTH, and Spitfire XIV's role is to fly high and cover other RAF a/c, there is no difference between 18lbs and 21lbs above 4000m.

 

Same for the 109s... the boost only gives a moderate performance gain under FTH. And quite frankly, neither the XIV or the K-4 needs that boost very much, so its hard to understand all the excitement about it. Its the IX that needs the boost it direly..

 

We need a 11lbs tempy which is runing on 100/130 fuel not 115/150. The Tempy's role is just like Dora. Yes, in late years RAF was not mainforce fighting Luftwaffe anymore, and 2nd RAF only need to cope with a portion of K4/D9, other k4s go for USAAF.:D

 

 

http://www.hawkertempest.se/index.php/piloter/victories

 

Tempest shot down hundreds of german planes(200? I havn't count), not so many as USAAF did but not negligible. It seems that it was Fairbanks(ACE) first shot down Dora at 22 Feb 1945. Any ealier combat between Dora and Tempy? Another famous tempy pilot Clostermann got others Dora.

 

It is said that Tempy sqn finnaly got 8:1 ratio on Luftwaffe when air to air. Therefore 20-30 Tempests lost due to german planes.

 

22 Feb Fw190D 2 274 S/L D.C. Fairbanks (EJ648) Rheine airfield III/JG 54

 

2 April Fw190D-9 1 56 F/L P.H. Clostermann US-G (NV968) Aldhorn airfield See note no.

 

Indeed the regular combat at this time was between the USAAF and the LW at this time... the engagements and losses were on the most massive and bloodiest scale on both sides. The 2nd TAF units were much less of a concern to the LW than the heavies, so those fighter engagements were rather occasional and a bit of a sideshow IMO.

 

Nevertheless, I find them more interesting. As opposed to the big, rather impersonal "material war" above the clouds, these rarer RAF - LW engagements at low - medium level was much more like the classic, small unit size engagaments of the Soviet-German front.

[Kurfürst]

+1 to that, easily my favourite too on allied fighters. Would have been better choice to this company than Spit IX imho...

Still, i wish next plane to DCS ww2 would be some twin engine aircraft, preferably bomber.

 

I wish it would be fiiiiiinallly... a 410. :thumbup:

[MiloMorai]

In the 4 Gruppen there was 158 K-4s on hand with 79 serviceable. April 9 1945

 

I./JG27 - 29/13 (45%)

III./JG27 - 35/15 (43%)

III./JG53 - 40/24 (60%)

IV./JG53 - 54/27 (50%)

 

158/79 (50%)

 

A dismal serviceable rate.

[Friedrich-4B]

So are you claiming that you have never, ever seen the evidence for these technical troubles and fatal accidents?

 

You are the one making the claim, so where is your evidence?

 

Where is the evidence that the SINGLE XIV Wing that were supposed to use +21 lbs boost ever made the transition?

 

Not that I actually made such a claim, making this a total Red Herring

 

Nor has any evidence ever been supplied that of this single XIV Wing of the 2nd TAF ever used higher boost on operations. Nor for the single or two Mark IX Wing for that matter. There is not a single combat account of a XIV or IX pilot ever mentioning the use of high boost against an enemy aircraft.

 

Red Herring continued. And in several years of desperate searching and making unsubstantiated claims Kurfurst has yet to provide evidence that 1.98 ata was ever used from late March 1945, apart from one order, which also stipulated that all 109G units were to transition to K-4s, which also didn't happen.

 

Interesting claim, without a source. Yeah I guess they just spent the rest of the war taking a nap. :D

 

 

III./JG 27 bases:

 

18.3.45 - 29.3.45Gütersloh Bf 109K

29.3.45 - 8.4.45 Goslar Bf 109K

8.4.45 - 11.4.45 Halberstadt Bf 109K

11.4.45 - 4.45 Grossenhain Bf 109K

4.45 - 20.4.45 Prague-Gbell Bf 109K

20.4.45 - 2.5.45 Bad Aibling Bf 109K

2.5.45 - 5.45 Salzburg Bf 109K

5.45 - 8.5.45 Saalbach Bf 109K

 

And in all that time, they weren't shooting down a single aircraft, being one of the four main 109 Gruppen of the West. :megalol:

 

Not napping - they succeeded in shooting down 24 aircraft between 2 January 1945 & war's end, while operations were severely restricted by order of the OKL

 

 

Nope, it four Gruppen with a strenght of about 150 109s in strenght (which were moving up and down of course - the normal established strenght for four 1944 LW fighter Gruppen would be about 270 aircraft) , which were ALL the Bf 109s remaining in the Western front by the Spring of 1945. The rest were on the eastern front.

 

From Kurfurst's own "research" showing 79 servicable K-4s http://www.kurfurst.atw.hu/articles/MW_KvsXIV.htm

 

Overview of unit strenghts for the units that used 1,98ata. As per 9th April 1945.

The list of 1,98ata units is most likely incomplete. Source : Alfred Price : The Last year of the Luftwaffe

Unit On hand Servicable Type

II./JG 11 N/A N/A Bf 109 K and G

I./JG 27 29 13 Bf 109 K

III./JG 27 19 15 Bf 109 K and some 109 Gs

III./JG 53 40 24 Bf 109 K and some 109 Gs

IV./JG 53 54 27 Bf 109 K and some 109 Gs

Total 142 79

 

Thing is, in the Spring of 1945, if you met a 109K in Western front in the late March - April May of 1945, it was to be a fully rated (1.98 ata) one.

 

Not proven, and a total strength of 0.079% - 0.142% of all Bf 109s on the Western front.