AIM 120 range question

[stray cat]

The AIM 120 missile is listed as having a range of 55km. Does that mean the average range or is that the absolute max range under best firing conditions? I fired them at practice targets, me moving at 600km/h and my target fleeing from me at around the same speed. No matter wether the distance between me and the target increased during the chase, the missile appears to run out of speed at around 25km and starts to slow down, tumble and fall out of the sky. Missile was fired with me and the target being at roghly the same altitude. I get that firing from a greater altitude increases range but how does a missile work in terms of speed management? Does it go full throttle until it runs out and then ballistically tries to steer itself to the target?

[Ironhand]

:) Absolute max firing conditions. They strap it to a bomber and drag it well up into the stratosphere and let it fly with no maneuvering involved after launch. The number you get is the listed "maximum range". EDIT: So take maximum range figures with a grain of salt :EDIT ENDS. AFAIK, it goes full throttle after launch and then turns into a very expensive, wingless glider.

 

Rich

Edited August 25, 2014 by Ironhand

[Pepec9124]

Amraam is not fixed yet, I'm using Aim-54 for now as folks from ED didn't bothered to give It AFM.

[Skall]

With the current flight model, I don't expect to get a kill until I'm about 20nm (~37km) from my target AND we are flying towards each other. Even then the missile is fairly easy to defeat. Anything further than that or in a different aspect and hoping for a kill is wishful thinking.

[GGTharos]

Absolute max range conditions would see an AIM-120 going well over 50nm (it's longer ranged than an AIM-7, and AIM-7 Raero by official pubs is over 50nm).

 

Yes, nm, not km. That should give you an idea of how much we know/don't know about how missiles fly and work.

 

:) Absolute max firing conditions. They strap it to a bomber and drag it well up into the stratosphere and let it fly with no maneuvering involved after launch. The number you get is the listed "maximum range". EDIT: So take maximum range figures with a grain of salt :EDIT ENDS. AFAIK, it goes full throttle after launch and then turns into a very expensive, wingless glider.

 

Rich

[deckard]

I would like to expand on the question regarding the range of AIM120. What is the range of R77 and R27-ER? at 3000 meters (altitude) or any other altitude. I mean, an effective range where I can actually shoot down a plane?

[FLANKERATOR]

@deckard

Latest long range kill I saw for the R-27ER was from <51>Rage during the last Joint Warrior battle (DCS 1.2.9). The moment he pulled the trigger, Tacview was reading 30 miles (48km) away from his target (F-15C). He was at medium altitude IIRC and the F-15 had some angle off.

 

@stray_cat

Rmax for the RL AIM120C is well beyond 55km (drone style intercept).

Effective range is really hard to say as it depends on lot of things, you can well hit from 40nm away with a big lofted trajectory from over 40k if your target is unaware and/or focused on something else or miss within 6nm if your guy is good and has nothing to do but survive your shot.

[GGTharos]

Knowing a bunch of the data, I'll just offer this piece of 2c for knowledge and consideration. I'm not intending to trigger 'when will ED fix this' posts. Don't even try!

 

Generally speaking, in game missiles have too much drag. This reduces their range significantly from what it should be, but relative performance is shall we say... Reasonable.

 

Missiles in game also have some maneuver issues IMHO: they cannot turn as hard as they ought to. Again, fair because it's the same for all missiles.

 

Fuzes target the virtual pilots helmets and so in some intercept geometries they are far too vulnerable to kinetic defeat. Again, fair.

 

This is without getting into guidance.

 

But again, if you're going to complain, you have better have far better data than Wikipedia or even in-game encyclopedia.

[Zurich]

 

 

Missiles in game also have some maneuver issues IMHO: they cannot turn as hard as they ought to. Again, fair because it's the same for all missiles.

 

 

From what I've seen, its not that they cant turn as hard as they ought to, but they can't do it in the first place because when they do, they incur a massive drag penalty (which is obviously what is supposed to happen, it just seems like a little to much of a penalty) which then bleeds any remaining speed they have too soon.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Zurich

[GGTharos]

The aerodynamics are all related to each other. And yes, I meant they can't turn hard enough. The drag in turns is also not quite right IMHO, but we have very little data about this.

[Exorcet]

I kind of just wish they would make a quick fix for the loft. At altitude the missiles can go really far. I got a near hit on a MiG-25 head on at 60 nm, but because of the loft in sim, the missile waited far too late to pull down and couldn't generate enough lift to descend on the MiG. It flew over at something like Mach 2.5.

[Oberst Zeisig]

Maybe it's about kind of steering logic. So if the missile just at once reacts to target movements with radical turn to the new intercept course it maybe bleeds much too much speed compared to ... "smoothen" out the course correction. E.g. the target does several evasion moves one move compensates the other. Maybe there is no (100 %) "right" or "wrong" pattern and we can get even less data on that logic.

 

Sure I didn't find the correct words and probably been discussed before, but I'm just interested.

 

 

The aerodynamics are all related to each other. And yes, I meant they can't turn hard enough. The drag in turns is also not quite right IMHO, but we have very little data about this.

[TAW_Blaze]

I kind of just wish they would make a quick fix for the loft. At altitude the missiles can go really far. I got a near hit on a MiG-25 head on at 60 nm, but because of the loft in sim, the missile waited far too late to pull down and couldn't generate enough lift to descend on the MiG. It flew over at something like Mach 2.5.

 

First of all the loft logic is incorrect. You can see this at HI-LO shots. Radar support missing for the AMRAAM post active state. And the list could go on and on..

[Exorcet]

First of all the loft logic is incorrect.

Oh very much so. I tried shooting from a lower altitude to keep the AMRAAM's altitude down, but that just made the missile pull 12 g off the rial and go near vertical so it reach the same height, only it wasted all its thrust in doing so.

 

I've actually had better luck at times shooting missiles without a lock at a slight upward angle, making my own "loft" profile.

[blkspade]

As far as lofting goes, I have noticed that sometimes the first missile off the rail will loft while the 2nd one won't. This seems to happen shooting on a single target, with some minimal missile separation. At least that is the impression I've gotten from the tacview tracks in singe player.

[SFJackBauer]

I end up "roleplaying" and assuming that missile had a hardware fault or something... Just like the ARMs that explode in mid-air.

[Oberst Zeisig]

This is maybe due to smaller firing distance of 2nd shot? But You said minimal separation ....

 

As far as lofting goes, I have noticed that sometimes the first missile off the rail will loft while the 2nd one won't. This seems to happen shooting on a single target, with some minimal missile separation. At least that is the impression I've gotten from the tacview tracks in singe player.

[Oberst Zeisig]

That's a good point of view and I like the situation as it's now so You have to get closer to a bandit for a 2nd or 3rd shot and work on it like pushing him to the splash. :) 1st missle is mostly just for getting an advantage and gaining a better position on the bandit and it's a very good BVR practice IMO, even if it often ends up WVR.

 

I end up "roleplaying" and assuming that missile had a hardware fault or something... Just like the ARMs that explode in mid-air.