arglmauf Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Greetings, a friend and I have been puzzling over the question whether it should actually be possible to rip your wings off when you nosedive the P-51 at 400-500 mp/h by slamming the stick back to full deflection. Question was whether it should be possible to deflect the elevators so hard that the turn immediatly rips the wings off instead of the pilot actually fighting against the air pressure and not reaching a deflection strong enough to reach the necessary Gs almost instantly. Human arm strength being the assumed limiting factor here. We were wondering since the stiffening of control surfaces is described for planes going at high speeds, prime example being the 109 that was notorious for control surfaces stiffening at about 450+ km/h. Is this effect modelled in DCS or do all DCS pilots have super powerful arms, to put it jokingly?:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weta43 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 If you have a FFB joystick, the stick is stiffer at high speed than at low - but there isn't enough force in a FFB joystick to stop you making a full deflection if you chose to, and I think the approach taken was that the model would react to stick input as it would for the same amount of stick input IRL, then it's up to you to fly it correctly - no 'artificially modifying' overlays of decreased responsiveness. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I suspect a rethink may be in order once the 109 is out! As elevator getting too heavy was a limiting factor in dives. A weakness that some other aircraft could exploit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der_Fred Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 no 'artificially modifying' overlays of decreased responsiveness As we're never going to get that reality in our PC environment.. it's the next best alternative - works pretty well in IL2, unless you want a billion dollar DCS sim !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solty Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 YoYo(Dev) told me that this is indeed how it should be in the Mustang. http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1970423&postcount=380 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies. My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS. My channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9.JG27 DavidRed Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) Greetings, a friend and I have been puzzling over the question whether it should actually be possible to rip your wings off when you nosedive the P-51 at 400-500 mp/h by slamming the stick back to full deflection. Question was whether it should be possible to deflect the elevators so hard that the turn immediatly rips the wings off instead of the pilot actually fighting against the air pressure and not reaching a deflection strong enough to reach the necessary Gs almost instantly. Human arm strength being the assumed limiting factor here. We were wondering since the stiffening of control surfaces is described for planes going at high speeds, prime example being the 109 that was notorious for control surfaces stiffening at about 450+ km/h. Is this effect modelled in DCS or do all DCS pilots have super powerful arms, to put it jokingly?:) If you have a FFB joystick, the stick is stiffer at high speed than at low - but there isn't enough force in a FFB joystick to stop you making a full deflection if you chose to, and I think the approach taken was that the model would react to stick input as it would for the same amount of stick input IRL, then it's up to you to fly it correctly - no 'artificially modifying' overlays of decreased responsiveness. I suspect a rethink may be in order once the 109 is out! As elevator getting too heavy was a limiting factor in dives. A weakness that some other aircraft could exploit. the effect is already modeled.you can have a look at it with opening the control-input window with right Ctrl+Enter.fly fast enough, and then give inputs, and you will notice, that you will not reach full deflection of axis. Edited October 22, 2014 by 9./JG27 DavidRed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulres Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 P51 didnt really suffer from 'compression' badly as say, the P38 Lighting. while you do notice it at high speeds it doesnt render the elevators useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arglmauf Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 The questioned pertained to whether the P-51 at high speeds has the control authority required to make such a hard turn. Yoyo confirms in the linked post that yes, it had that much authority. Learning something new every day. I'm quite amazed that there were fighters out there that had the technical capability to swing themselves around so hard that they pretty much rip their own wings off. So in other words: The forces that would stiffen the controls are modelled, just that the P-51 is constructed so well in that regard that it retains enough authority to do what I described in the initial post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solty Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 The questioned pertained to whether the P-51 at high speeds has the control authority required to make such a hard turn. Yoyo confirms in the linked post that yes, it had that much authority. Learning something new every day. I'm quite amazed that there were fighters out there that had the technical capability to swing themselves around so hard that they pretty much rip their own wings off. So in other words: The forces that would stiffen the controls are modelled, just that the P-51 is constructed so well in that regard that it retains enough authority to do what I described in the initial post. o7 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies. My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS. My channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavagai Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 If you have a FFB joystick, the stick is stiffer at high speed than at low - but there isn't enough force in a FFB joystick to stop you making a full deflection if you chose to, and I think the approach taken was that the model would react to stick input as it would for the same amount of stick input IRL, then it's up to you to fly it correctly - no 'artificially modifying' overlays of decreased responsiveness. But the stick does deflect less at high speed than at low speed, even if you move your joystick completely to the left or right, for example. Stick forces are indeed a limitation. Or did I misunderstand you somehow? I also have a ffb joystick. As for what would happen to a real pilot... G forces would definitely prevent you from pulling so hard as to rip your wings off. Even 5G is extremely uncomfortable. You know how hard you are pulling. P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtmike74 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 There is only one way to find out.........anybody got a real P51 they could lend us? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kubanloewe Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=132822 WIN 10; i9-9900K@4,8GHz; Gigabyte Z390 Aorus;32GB Corsair DDR4 3600MHz; 2TB Samsung SSD; GeForce GTX1080 8GB Seahawk; 34" AW3418DW; MS FFB2 Stick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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