FSKRipper Posted March 9, 2015 Posted March 9, 2015 +1 nice diagrams but they won't bring us one step foward as long as you post dozens of pics for different topics. :( Please remember the thread title. You said you have material for the ASP problem which could help LNS. So please stay focused. i9 9900K @ 5,0GHz | 1080GTX | 32GB RAM | 256GB, 512GB & 1TB Samsung SSDs | TIR5 w/ Track Clip | Virpil T-50 Stick with extension + Warthog Throttle | MFG Crosswind pedals | Gametrix 908 Jetseat [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
finger Posted March 9, 2015 Posted March 9, 2015 Still I do not understand how this will get us closer to solving the mysteries of the ASP :) Tomorow,patience please. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
some1 Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 If you're looking for some more reference about ASP gunsight then here is MiG-21 Operating Manual digitized by Aviation Museum in Cracov. It's in Polish, but at least on person in the Leatherneck team speaks this language ;) http://www.muzeumlotnictwa.pl/index.php/digitalizacja/katalog/1363 Gunsight description starts at page 93. For example this page clearly states that in "GYRO, AUT." mode the gunsight is fed with range info from either radar or manual optical rangefinder. As described by sissypilot in this thread, "GYRO, AUT." is used in the 600-2000m range. In the "GYRO, MANUAL" the sight is fixed at 300m. This is also described in this manual. Hardware: VPForce Rhino, FSSB R3 Ultra, Virpil WarBRD, Hotas Warthog, Winwing F15EX, Slaw Rudder, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Quest Pro
sissypilot Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 It is so boring to be right all the time.. :) 1
finger Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Well,I am back Couple of words about BREAK OFF and LAUNCH AUTHORIZED lights logic. When we are in- AIR- mode GUN ,AUT or MAN and distance to target is bigger than 2000 m, lights are OFF,needle is fully right. When distance is 1950m LAUNCH light is ON untill it reached 600-650m. Now LAUNCH goes OFF and BREAK OFF goes ON untill minim distance-fully left. The needle movement is very fluently. When we are in-GROUND-mode GUN-RKTS (S-5M,K) AUT or MAN and distance to target is bigger than 2000m,lights are OFF,needle is fully right. When distance is 1950m LAUNCH light is ON untill it reached 1200m,now LAUNCH goes OFF and BREAK OFF goes ON untill minim. distance. -GROUND-mode RKTS(S-24)-all is the same,except distance of change which is 1600m In analog.computer must be insert proper ballistic box(early model),or switch in proper position(late model) Small overlapping between lights is allowed,in moment of change. For guided missiles(scale 1-9km). Both lights are controlled by radar-target must be LOCK. For IR missiles R-13M,R-60M LAUNCH is ON at 9km-but pilot must have proper audio-signal in headphones (green light 60 must be ON) It mean that missile has target LOCK.by For SARH missiles R-3R,RS-2US- by light on radar screen. For CH-66 GROM (fixed beam mode)-LAUNCH is ON at 9km-but pilot must have visual contact with target. BREAK OFF is around 1700-1800m for all guided missiles. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Art-J Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 If you're looking for some more reference about ASP gunsight then here is MiG-21 Operating Manual digitized by Aviation Museum in Cracov. It's in Polish, but at least on person in the Leatherneck team speaks this language ;) [...] Gunsight description starts at page 93. For example this page clearly states that in "GYRO, AUT." mode the gunsight is fed with range info from either radar or manual optical rangefinder. [...] As described by sissypilot in this thread, "GYRO, AUT." is used in the 600-2000m range. In the "GYRO, MANUAL" the sight is fixed at 300m. This is also described in this manual. Both English manual for 21Bis quoted here often and the Polish one were translated from the same source document though, so it's not like they're any different content-wise ;). We need some other docs for cross-checking purposes. i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.
finger Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Angle scale. In real sight this scale is used for setting vertical aiming angle for GUN or RKTS,in GROUND mode. Switches position:GUN-RKTS,FIRE,AUT-MAN,GYRO,GROUND,slant range can be from radar or from slant range box. When we will be switching between GUN or RKTS position(AUTO-mode),we can see piper movement from boresight(0 degree) downward,acording ball. box of RKTS(we can see position on angle knob) When we are in MAN mode,we can seet its manualy by hand. This vertical aiming angle is set by two-way mirror. In AIR mode. Switches position:SS,AUT,RKTS,FIRE,AIR and SARH missiles(only)vertical aiming angle will be set on 3degree downward from boresight.This is fixed value for each SARH missile. Reason:Boresight line and beam line must be parallel,so missile can fly into radar beam. Bombing mode. Switches position:B,MAN,SS. The pilot manualy set vertical aiming angle according to bomb chart. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
some1 Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Both English manual for 21Bis quoted here often and the Polish one were translated from the same source document though, so it's not like they're any different content-wise ;). We need some other docs for cross-checking purposes. Are you suggesting it is inaccurate or false? While it is not detailed enough to be the only information source for simulating the systems, it's not a random document from the internet translated by an unknown chap, but an official document used in pilots training. Hardware: VPForce Rhino, FSSB R3 Ultra, Virpil WarBRD, Hotas Warthog, Winwing F15EX, Slaw Rudder, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Quest Pro
finger Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Fixed net There is small cross under boresight line(11 mils)This is aiming point for firing by gun on ground targets. The position of this cross is computed for those conditions: dive angle- 35 degree A/C velocity- 800 km/h target distance- 1500m So,there is possibility to use two weapons in one attack. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
FSKRipper Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) Are you suggesting it is inaccurate or false? While it is not detailed enough to be the only information source for simulating the systems, it's not a random document from the internet translated by an unknown chap, but an official document used in pilots training. He is not stating that your source is wrong. As I understand it, both documents, the polish and the english one are of the same origin. He simply asks for another source document so no need to be upset. @ finger: I hoped you would deliver us some additional documents for the AA-ASP problem as promised. Another "facts" without a reliable source publication won't bring us any further :music_whistling: The grom comments are not relevant since the 21bis is not able to fire it in RL (see the numerous grom threads). Edited March 10, 2015 by FSKRipper i9 9900K @ 5,0GHz | 1080GTX | 32GB RAM | 256GB, 512GB & 1TB Samsung SSDs | TIR5 w/ Track Clip | Virpil T-50 Stick with extension + Warthog Throttle | MFG Crosswind pedals | Gametrix 908 Jetseat [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
sissypilot Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 Well in contrary you can ask for a document which describes the workings of the ASP as it is working now. Where it is written that no radar ranging, locking piper, lifting piper with increasing distance etc...
FSKRipper Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) Well in contrary you can ask for a document which describes the workings of the ASP as it is working now. Where it is written that no radar ranging, locking piper, lifting piper with increasing distance etc... I can understand your point of view but otherwise I have not seen one reliable source stating that the ASP-5 is fed with range data by the RP-22M. It may be, but I have never found evidence on this point. Sure there are possibilities, the ASP-5 worked good in combination with a SRD-5MK radar rangefinder on older versions. But before posting in every LNS subforum that this is unfinished software (show me one module which is completely error free and not WIP), give us the proof :music_whistling:. The promised information from finger is still to be delivered... If you have no written evidence it would be nice to see some statements from real pilots or technicians (not the "a friend of mine" story). If you can't deliver it, i would stay with the LNS Version of the MiG. Edited March 12, 2015 by FSKRipper i9 9900K @ 5,0GHz | 1080GTX | 32GB RAM | 256GB, 512GB & 1TB Samsung SSDs | TIR5 w/ Track Clip | Virpil T-50 Stick with extension + Warthog Throttle | MFG Crosswind pedals | Gametrix 908 Jetseat [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
FSKRipper Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) Before this will take a spam character, my russian is not the best but your book says MiG-21MF right? Maybe it will follow but on the pages shown, I can't find a clue about a rangefinding by the RP-22M. Edited March 12, 2015 by FSKRipper i9 9900K @ 5,0GHz | 1080GTX | 32GB RAM | 256GB, 512GB & 1TB Samsung SSDs | TIR5 w/ Track Clip | Virpil T-50 Stick with extension + Warthog Throttle | MFG Crosswind pedals | Gametrix 908 Jetseat [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
finger Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 Yes,weapon systems are the same from 21M version to 21BIS with a little difference. Attention- big difference is in guided missiles . [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
some1 Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) The manual I linked details RP-22 SMA radar (export version of RP-22M) working with ASP-PFD gunsight. So FSKRipper, why do you consider it an unreliable source? Edited March 12, 2015 by some1 Hardware: VPForce Rhino, FSSB R3 Ultra, Virpil WarBRD, Hotas Warthog, Winwing F15EX, Slaw Rudder, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Quest Pro
Dudikoff Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 Before this will take a spam character, my russian is not the best but your book says MiG-21MF right? That's Czech, I think. Russian would be in Cyrillic. i386DX40@42 MHz w/i387 CP, 4 MB RAM (8*512 kB), Trident 8900C 1 MB w/16-bit RAMDAC ISA, Quantum 340 MB UDMA33, SB 16, DOS 6.22 w/QEMM + Win3.11CE, Quickshot 1btn 2axis, Numpad as hat. 2 FPH on a good day, 1 FPH avg. DISCLAIMER: My posts are still absolutely useless. Just finding excuses not to learn the F-14 (HB's Swansong?). Annoyed by my posts? Please consider donating. Once the target sum is reached, I'll be off to somewhere nice I promise not to post from. I'd buy that for a dollar!
finger Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 ASP-PF-21 was used on 21M,MA ASP-PFD-21 was used on 21MF,BIS and MIG-23UB [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
FSKRipper Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) Yes,weapon systems are the same from 21M version to 21BIS with a little difference. Attention- big difference is in guided missiles . Weapon systems yes, equipment, no. I never denied the ability of the ASP-5 to use radar information. I'm not 100% sure if all variants had the same equipments in all air forces. But the 21M and the 21MF used in the east german air force used a RP21 MA which is some kind of radar gunsight.We call it "Funkmessvisier". The RP-22 is a completely different construction site.... The manual I linked details RP-22 SMA radar (export version of RP-22M) working with ASP-PFD gunsight. So FSKRipper, why do you consider it an unreliable source? I don't say so, but since it is not my native language I would kindly request the exact page of your link stating the coherence between the gunsight and the radar. I will take the time and check this with a native speaker, ok? That's Czech, I think. Russian would be in Cyrillic. I mean the first picture by finger the book with the red envelope. Is that really not cyrillic? If so I'm sorry. Last but not least I hit the right model :) Edit: I don't know how good your german is finger, this is a datacard of an east german MF Again, I don't deny the possibility of a radar range function. But before I join your team, convince me!www.mig-21-online.de_mf.pdf Edited March 12, 2015 by FSKRipper i9 9900K @ 5,0GHz | 1080GTX | 32GB RAM | 256GB, 512GB & 1TB Samsung SSDs | TIR5 w/ Track Clip | Virpil T-50 Stick with extension + Warthog Throttle | MFG Crosswind pedals | Gametrix 908 Jetseat [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
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