BVR Jousting: I'm doing it wrong.

[Zilch]

Hi, folks.

 

I'm picking up the F-15C coming from the A-10C. Comparatively, it feels like a rocket. Fun times.

 

Anyway, I know the best idea is to detect and engage targets BVR, but I seem to be having trouble engaging anything outside of dogfight range without having to wade through a few AA-10's myself.

 

A few problems I've noticed using the F-15's systems:

 

1. There is always an annoying ladder line of rectangles in my radar scope. I'm not sure what this is but it obscures my target picture. Is it something useful that I'm overlooking, and, if not, can I shut it off?

 

2. I can see the big "29" on my RWR long before my radar picks up the target. I understand why this might be happening (target beaming, maybe, easier to pick up an active scan than a passive target) but usually, by the time I get within detection range, the MiG has already fired at me. Is there a better way to detect targets than to wait for the RWR, head out toward the general area of the RWR signal, and hope for the best?

 

3. My 120's themselves seem to have quite limited effective range. They're touted as having a ~40nm range, but usually my engagement zone restricts itself to about 10nm, max. Usually I don't get a good firing solution until about 7nm away. At this point I may as well go with my winders. It seems that although the missile is capable of long shots, the Pk outside of 10nm is so horribly low that it nullifies any BVR advantage I may have had. Am I doing something wrong here? Again, by the time I get a solid shot, I've already been fired at several times.

 

I'd love to be able to use the 15 as it is intended instead, hitting with AMRAAM's at long range, instead of how I am now, which is evade until I can get WVR and go for my AIM-9's and guns. I usually end up just loading Sparrows and using FLOOD radar mode, which I think is tossing a couple of decades of technological progress out the window.

 

Where am I going wrong?

[GGTharos]

A few problems I've noticed using the F-15's systems:

 

1. There is always an annoying ladder line of rectangles in my radar scope. I'm not sure what this is but it obscures my target picture. Is it something useful that I'm overlooking, and, if not, can I shut it off?

 

Enemy ECM. That ladder is a jammer strobe.

 

2. I can see the big "29" on my RWR long before my radar picks up the target. I understand why this might be happening (target beaming, maybe, easier to pick up an active scan than a passive target) but usually, by the time I get within detection range, the MiG has already fired at me. Is there a better way to detect targets than to wait for the RWR, head out toward the general area of the RWR signal, and hope for the best?

 

If the target is beaming, how can you pick up his radar? :)

 

Your radar sees a reflection of its own energy from the target's surface. That means this signal has to travel there, and back. So it goes twice as far and loses many more times the energy that the target's RWR is picking up (the reflection itself is also pretty lossy).

 

The radar will pick up a MiG-29 at 40-60nm, depending on relative altitude. The F-15's radar will burn through at around 22-28nm.

 

So, what's really happening here? :)

 

3. My 120's themselves seem to have quite limited effective range. They're touted as having a ~40nm range, but usually my engagement zone restricts itself to about 10nm, max. Usually I don't get a good firing solution until about 7nm away. At this point I may as well go with my winders. It seems that although the missile is capable of long shots, the Pk outside of 10nm is so horribly low that it nullifies any BVR advantage I may have had. Am I doing something wrong here? Again, by the time I get a solid shot, I've already been fired at several times.

 

Have you tried shooting at higher altitudes? (But yes, they're draggier than they ought to be).

BVR, btw, means exactly this: BEYOND visual range. So, if you can't see your bandit past 5nm ... 5nm + is BVR.

[SinusoidDelta]

1. There is always an annoying ladder line of rectangles in my radar scope. I'm not sure what this is but it obscures my target picture. Is it something useful that I'm overlooking, and, if not, can I shut it off?

 

The rectangles aligned vertically are displaying the azimuth of a radar jammer detected by the F-15's radar. You can position the TDC over the strobe and lock it to enter Home On Jam and the VSD will display HOJ. This mode only gives you the targets azimuth and does not tell you altitude, range or if the aircraft is friend or foe. When you get close enough (approx. <20nm) your aircrafts radar is able to overcome the noise of the jammer and the target will be displayed on the VSD, this is called Burn-Through. Hopefully that helps you a bit. I'll leave the other questions to the real experts. :thumbup:

Edited October 27, 2014 by SinusoidDelta

[TAW_Blaze]

1. There is always an annoying ladder line of rectangles in my radar scope. I'm not sure what this is but it obscures my target picture. Is it something useful that I'm overlooking, and, if not, can I shut it off?

 

ECM as GG said above. As a general rule of thumb you will have burn through against DCS fighter aircraft around 25nm. The -29 will tend to be a bit further out and other F-15s tend to be a bit closer, something like 22nm. Basically ECM in the game is good to mask your range given the fact 1) you don't care about broadcasting your presence or 2) broadcasting your presence doesn't matter or 3) you want to broadcast your position. Why?

 

Assume a normal multiplayer A2A quake server. Most pilots will fly straight down to the enemy base. In case you are among them, which is highly probable, broadcasting your presence doesn't matter at all as you're not exactly trying to sneak around some guys.

 

Using your own jammer is generally a good idea when you're flying towards the enemy and you're trying to attack someone while you want to hide your exact position to some extent. When flying home it's usually better to shut it off or you might end up meeting some new curse words in the chat. Obviously ECM use even with this extremely dumbed down thing that we have in the game is not this simple but it's a start.

 

2. I can see the big "29" on my RWR long before my radar picks up the target. I understand why this might be happening (target beaming, maybe, easier to pick up an active scan than a passive target) but usually, by the time I get within detection range, the MiG has already fired at me. Is there a better way to detect targets than to wait for the RWR, head out toward the general area of the RWR signal, and hope for the best?

 

Just because there's a sign on your RWR it doesn't necessarily mean he actually sees you. There are a lot of things that affect detection by radar. I'll just list a few

 

1) Aspect: Targets flying towards you will be detected much further than targets flying away from you. Targets flying perpendicular to you (also called beaming, and notching in case the target is also lower than you) will give you a lot of trouble as pulse-doppler radars have a very hard time detecting anything that sustains this aspect.

 

2) PRF setting: with HI PRF ingame the F-15C can see the other fighters that are flying towards her around 50-60nm most often. Put that radar in MPRF and you won't see anything much further than 25-30nm. Therefore it is important to use the appropriate PRF based on what you're trying to do. As a rule of thumb, if you want to do anything outside 25nm, use HI PRF. Inside that, MPRF is usually better, but again this just a general guideline.

 

3) What the other pilot is doing! He might paint you but that doesn't necessarily mean he knows about you. He might be busy with someone else. Or he just swept across you with his radar too fast resulting in no detection on his end.

 

Of the above 3 the first one is most reliable when using against a bandit, the rest you can almost never tell for sure.

 

Other than that, rely on your radar and your communications to find the bad guys.

 

3. My 120's themselves seem to have quite limited effective range. They're touted as having a ~40nm range, but usually my engagement zone restricts itself to about 10nm, max. Usually I don't get a good firing solution until about 7nm away. At this point I may as well go with my winders. It seems that although the missile is capable of long shots, the Pk outside of 10nm is so horribly low that it nullifies any BVR advantage I may have had. Am I doing something wrong here? Again, by the time I get a solid shot, I've already been fired at several times.

 

This could really go a long way, but: forget about the bullshit expectations of 40-50nm range AMRAAM against anything. Those listed ranges came from high altitude shots against nonmaneuvering aircraft under optimum conditions i.e. flying dead straight towards you.

 

In comparison the average DCS pilot will immediately turn 180 degrees away from the missile at the moment he detects the launch and start running in full afterburners. I'm not kidding.

 

Yes DCS missiles are underperforming but let's leave that there isn't a whole lot me or you can do about it.

 

*rolls eyes, I bet half of my squadron is gonna die laughing when they read the above sentence*

 

There's a myriad of things that can be said about BVR. I'll just name a few that are the fundamentals of doing good BVR.

 

1) Altitude. Always try to have the advantage.

 

2) Speed. Be fast when flying, be blazing when shooting and running. Testing your acceleration with combat loadout is a good thing to do in single player. You want to use as much AB as necessary, not more. Other madmen playing quake on the server will force you to use it anyway.

 

3) Crank. This means you take an offset from the guy you're targeting ( most commonly ~ 50 degrees left or right). Why? All the time you aren't shooting at the guy you deny him a good shot as his missile will have a longer way to fly towards you. If you want to take a good shot at him, you can exit the crank, take the shot, and then do whatever you want. Again I made this really simple it's a lot more complex.

 

4) Get a step ahead of the guy. What does this mean?

 

The Eagle has some of the best energy gaining capabilites in DCS. You can use this get above the other guy and get faster than him. Once you're set with energetic advantage you want to make the guy fight on your terms. No matter what you do try to do it before him. Merely reacting to someone's moves tend to result in a run home.

 

As I said and I will say many times there are always exceptions to the rule, situations where you want to be lower and slower than the guy, and react to his actions. But the exceptions don't make the rule.

 

I'd love to be able to use the 15 as it is intended instead, hitting with AMRAAM's at long range, instead of how I am now, which is evade until I can get WVR and go for my AIM-9's and guns. I usually end up just loading Sparrows and using FLOOD radar mode, which I think is tossing a couple of decades of technological progress out the window.

 

FLOOD mode can be used for two reasons:

 

1) your radar fails, I'm not convinced this ever happens in DCS. Yet to find myself in a situation with my electronics gone equipping sparrows and sitting in a good launch position. I mean when your nose is flat out blown off not even FLOOD will work most likely. :D

 

2) trolling people. It's really funny but extremely difficult and risky to do. I can guarantee it if you do it, it'll result in a loss nearly every time.

 

Use the proper radar modes, learn how they work, learn in general how the radar works, understanding your radar is equally important to knowing how to fly good BVR. After all no matter how good you fly, if you can't find the guy it does no good.

 

Goddamit, another wall of text. I should write a book.

[Tricky11]

ECM as GG said above. As a general rule of thumb you will have burn through against DCS fighter aircraft around 25nm. The -29 will tend to be a bit further out and other F-15s tend to be a bit closer, something like 22nm. Basically ECM in the game is good to mask your range given the fact 1) you don't care about broadcasting your presence or 2) broadcasting your presence doesn't matter or 3) you want to broadcast your position. Why?

 

Assume a normal multiplayer A2A quake server. Most pilots will fly straight down to the enemy base. In case you are among them, which is highly probable, broadcasting your presence doesn't matter at all as you're not exactly trying to sneak around some guys.

 

Using your own jammer is generally a good idea when you're flying towards the enemy and you're trying to attack someone while you want to hide your exact position to some extent. When flying home it's usually better to shut it off or you might end up meeting some new curse words in the chat. Obviously ECM use even with this extremely dumbed down thing that we have in the game is not this simple but it's a start.

 

 

 

Just because there's a sign on your RWR it doesn't necessarily mean he actually sees you. There are a lot of things that affect detection by radar. I'll just list a few

 

1) Aspect: Targets flying towards you will be detected much further than targets flying away from you. Targets flying perpendicular to you (also called beaming, and notching in case the target is also lower than you) will give you a lot of trouble as pulse-doppler radars have a very hard time detecting anything that sustains this aspect.

 

2) PRF setting: with HI PRF ingame the F-15C can see the other fighters that are flying towards her around 50-60nm most often. Put that radar in MPRF and you won't see anything much further than 25-30nm. Therefore it is important to use the appropriate PRF based on what you're trying to do. As a rule of thumb, if you want to do anything outside 25nm, use HI PRF. Inside that, MPRF is usually better, but again this just a general guideline.

 

3) What the other pilot is doing! He might paint you but that doesn't necessarily mean he knows about you. He might be busy with someone else. Or he just swept across you with his radar too fast resulting in no detection on his end.

 

Of the above 3 the first one is most reliable when using against a bandit, the rest you can almost never tell for sure.

 

Other than that, rely on your radar and your communications to find the bad guys.

 

 

 

This could really go a long way, but: forget about the bullshit expectations of 40-50nm range AMRAAM against anything. Those listed ranges came from high altitude shots against nonmaneuvering aircraft under optimum conditions i.e. flying dead straight towards you.

 

In comparison the average DCS pilot will immediately turn 180 degrees away from the missile at the moment he detects the launch and start running in full afterburners. I'm not kidding.

 

Yes DCS missiles are underperforming but let's leave that there isn't a whole lot me or you can do about it.

 

*rolls eyes, I bet half of my squadron is gonna die laughing when they read the above sentence*

 

There's a myriad of things that can be said about BVR. I'll just name a few that are the fundamentals of doing good BVR.

 

1) Altitude. Always try to have the advantage.

 

2) Speed. Be fast when flying, be blazing when shooting and running. Testing your acceleration with combat loadout is a good thing to do in single player. You want to use as much AB as necessary, not more. Other madmen playing quake on the server will force you to use it anyway.

 

3) Crank. This means you take an offset from the guy you're targeting ( most commonly ~ 50 degrees left or right). Why? All the time you aren't shooting at the guy you deny him a good shot as his missile will have a longer way to fly towards you. If you want to take a good shot at him, you can exit the crank, take the shot, and then do whatever you want. Again I made this really simple it's a lot more complex.

 

4) Get a step ahead of the guy. What does this mean?

 

The Eagle has some of the best energy gaining capabilites in DCS. You can use this get above the other guy and get faster than him. Once you're set with energetic advantage you want to make the guy fight on your terms. No matter what you do try to do it before him. Merely reacting to someone's moves tend to result in a run home.

 

As I said and I will say many times there are always exceptions to the rule, situations where you want to be lower and slower than the guy, and react to his actions. But the exceptions don't make the rule.

 

 

 

FLOOD mode can be used for two reasons:

 

1) your radar fails, I'm not convinced this ever happens in DCS. Yet to find myself in a situation with my electronics gone equipping sparrows and sitting in a good launch position. I mean when your nose is flat out blown off not even FLOOD will work most likely. :D

 

2) trolling people. It's really funny but extremely difficult and risky to do. I can guarantee it if you do it, it'll result in a loss nearly every time.

 

Use the proper radar modes, learn how they work, learn in general how the radar works, understanding your radar is equally important to knowing how to fly good BVR. After all no matter how good you fly, if you can't find the guy it does no good.

 

Goddamit, another wall of text. I should write a book.

 

Now see this exactly why i want to join the 104th Squadron. Full of knowledge and advice... Roll on the next recruitment time....

[Zilch]

 

Goddamit, another wall of text. I should write a book.

 

Go ahead! I'd read it. This, and the above posts, are exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. Thanks, guys!

[AceRevo]

Great read, thanks all! :)

[shagrat]

Yep! I guess lots of people simply silently read your 'wall of text' and learned a lot from it, like I just did.

But be assured it's not wasted! :D

[wingshigh.g]

Blaze, to your point 2; reading the f15 manual, it says the radar by default automatically cycles between HI and Low PRF (interleaved mode), why do we still need to set it manually?

[TAW_Blaze]

Blaze, to your point 2; reading the f15 manual, it says the radar by default automatically cycles between HI and Low PRF (interleaved mode), why do we still need to set it manually?

 

Because interleaved will use HI half the time and MED in the other half. That can lead to losing lock far easier inside 20nm due to partially being in HI while you definitely want to stay in MED. It's some kind of jack of all trades mode that tries to do everything but every other specialized thing beats it in it's area.

 

Depending on your style of radar use interleaved can be useful for general search but I personally almost never use it.

[wingshigh.g]

This maybe a dumb question, but if HI is good for beyond 20nm and MED is good for within 20nm, can we not bind this to the search range? Or do I still need HI within 20nm if bandit is cold?

[wingshigh.g]

Sorry meant to ask if I should use MED if bandit is cold

[TAW_Blaze]

This maybe a dumb question, but if HI is good for beyond 20nm and MED is good for within 20nm, can we not bind this to the search range? Or do I still need HI within 20nm if bandit is cold?

 

You could probably make an AHK for it but I doubt it's very important or useful.

 

If you have to deal with anything that may go near a beam or past it you'd better be using MPRF or you will curse a lot. HI ain't got nothing on running guys! :D

 

Don't expect anything past beam aspect to show much further than 20nm regardless of any radar setting.

 

Sorry meant to ask if I should use MED if bandit is cold

 

Well I kinda answered it anyway np.

Edited October 30, 2014 by <Blaze>

[wingshigh.g]

Searched through the forum, some people say the best frequency choice is based on aspect angle, some say it is based on range, or is it a combination of both?

[Buckeye]

BVR Jousting: I'm doing it wrong.

 

Now see this exactly why i want to join the 104th Squadron. Full of knowledge and advice... Roll on the next recruitment time....

 

 

All of this info is readily available in many sources online if you just take the time to research it -- books, BMS manuals, this very forum, YouTube, etc. This is all very high level, general common knowledge info; all things you should always assume the guy flying towards you knows as well.

 

If you don't take the time to educate yourself prior to hopping online to fly, you shouldn't expect much success. That's a good rule of thumb, always know more than the guy you're facing up against.

[TAW_Blaze]

Searched through the forum, some people say the best frequency choice is based on aspect angle, some say it is based on range, or is it a combination of both?

 

It's a bit of both but against fighters the range rule works. Try stuff in single player it's the best way to find out.

[wingshigh.g]

Tks Blaze. For close combat modes, is there a default or set frequency? I don't have the manual with me but I don't recall it was indicated.

[TAW_Blaze]

Tks Blaze. For close combat modes, is there a default or set frequency? I don't have the manual with me but I don't recall it was indicated.

 

From what I know you can't change PRF in any STT mode. That includes AAQs aswell.

[Buckeye]

This thread is a must read: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=32019

[Tricky11]

All of this info is readily available in many sources online if you just take the time to research it -- books, BMS manuals, this very forum, YouTube, etc. This is all very high level, general common knowledge info; all things you should always assume the guy flying towards you knows as well.

 

If you don't take the time to educate yourself prior to hopping online to fly, you shouldn't expect much success. That's a good rule of thumb, always know more than the guy you're facing up against.

 

Yes but I can read and read and read and nothing sticks unless someone is talking me through it whilst I'm doing it so I can ask questions.... I take it you have never done a trainer training course at all?

[Buckeye]

Yes but I can read and read and read and nothing sticks unless someone is talking me through it whilst I'm doing it so I can ask questions.... I take it you have never done a trainer training course at all?

 

Depends what you mean by a training course? For DCS? Negative, as of the present I have not. I will be doing the 104th Combat training shortly though.

 

My original point was that you have a lot of resources out there that can help you, much the same as Blaze has in this thread, so don't sell yourself short -- read everything you can :thumb: When you read it, visualize everything you read. I am much the same as you in that I don't retain it unless I have a concentrated effort. Force yourself to visualize it over and over, or even read it then practice it against the AI right after reading it (create quick missions for yourself). Read the link I posted above, it covers pretty much everything you will need to know in regards to A2A combat and it is done in a "walking you through it" sort of way, too. I think you might like it. If you have any other questions after reading that about what you read, post them up so someone can clarify or expand on a point.

[Trailer]

The occasional "beep"s you hear from your RWR with the corresponding "29" are called "Nails". It's a radar in search mode that your RWR is picking up. They haven't found you, but they're looking for you. You will most definitely know when you are locked because you will have a constant alarm denoting you are "Spiked", which means locked by enemy radar.

 

If you aren't worried about playing online and play mostly solo, there is a mod around here somewhere that replaces the laughable and downright ridiculous missile dynamics of DCS with one that is a little more realistic, although not completely real, obviously. It's a huge improvement over the standard, the only problem is you can't fly online with it unless the server accepts it because you'll be flagged as cheating.

 

If you fly mainly solo, I would recommend it because you don't have to launch 6 AMRAAMs at ten miles and a 180 aspect and watch them all play lawn dart anymore.

[TAW_Blaze]

The occasional "beep"s you hear from your RWR with the corresponding "29" are called "Nails". It's a radar in search mode that your RWR is picking up. They haven't found you, but they're looking for you. You will most definitely know when you are locked because you will have a constant alarm denoting you are "Spiked", which means locked by enemy radar.

 

Actually being painted (or getting nails) can easily mean they found you. Getting beeps continuosly means that the RWR re-detects them as they are moving their radar cone away from your position back to it. After all it's great that they found you but there could be another whole squadron flying elsewhere planning to whoop their ***. :)

[Trailer]

If you hear nails, however, you're only seconds away from being locked if you're not maneuvering, if they haven't already locked you as you said. Nails are still a bad sign, hehe.

[Buckeye]

BVR Jousting: I'm doing it wrong.

 

If you hear nails, however, you're only seconds away from being locked if you're not maneuvering, if they haven't already locked you as you said. Nails are still a bad sign, hehe.

 

 

You can have nails for 50nm or more, not maneuvering, before you're in any danger at all from the jet that's painting you, so no you're not necessarily seconds away from being locked.

 

If they had already locked you, you would know it and would be "spiked" not "nailed".

 

And no, nails aren't necessarily a bad sign at all. It means someone is in the sky with you with their radar on pointed in your general direction; it's only "bad" when they're close, in the advantageous position, and an enemy.