Extend the Module concept to allow other types of modules

[Flagrum]

Currently DCS:W allows units, or more specifically aircraft to be implemented by modules that can be "plugged in" into the sim. These modules allow usually interaction with the user and also interact with the simulated world (flight model, weapons, damage model, etc.).

 

I think, this concept also applies to ground units, although we haven't seen a pure ground unit module, yet.

 

Then we can also plug-in AI units (ground or air), which basically consists of the external 3d model and a set of certain parameters which influence the behaviour of the AI. But these parameters are rather limited as they are only meant to control certain aspects of the unit's behaviour (i.e. capabilities like engine thrust, etc.).

 

What is lacking, imho, is a way to plug-in new behaviours. "External AI" so to say. For example it is impossible (as far as I understand DCS:W atm) that two different AI aircraft behave radically differently. The built-in AI only distinguishes between aircraft types "helo" and "plane", but I think, it would be desirable to allow some fine tuning. For example, a WWII fighter probably would apply some different tactics than a MiG-21 and a MiG-21 would probably act differently than a A-10C.

 

Example:

The LNS AI MiG-21 drops bombs in level flight with impressive precission. But everyone who flew her knows that this is impossible - you would at least need to dive from a certain altitude to successfully deliver unguided ordnance. So the MiG-21 behaves the same way as a A-10C (CCRP mode) would.

 

Therefore my idea to allow plug-ins that can control the behaviour of AI units. For that, it would suffice that such a plug in can control the steering commands (+ activating systems like sensors and radar, etc.) of a unit. The actual AI logic would have to be implemented inside the plug-in.

 

This would also be a first, perhaps most important, step towards the implementation of ideas like my "SB instance servers within DCS World" (http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2222071#post2222071 / http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2222094#post2222094 ). In short: let external code control units within DCS:W - no matter if that external code is some "static" AI logic ... or even a whole external server (i.e. SB) where other users are connected to.

[Archer7]

I can only see bad consequences of having AI modules...

Why not just ask ED to improve the already existing AI and have us users not worry about having to buy and plug in a bunch of different AI modules so everyone end up with different enemy AI?

[SkateZilla]

I can only see bad consequences of having AI modules...

Why not just ask ED to improve the already existing AI and have us users not worry about having to buy and plug in a bunch of different AI modules so everyone end up with different enemy AI?

 

 

You mean like:

BUG: The SkateZilla AI Module likes to do aerobatic passes and buzz towers at enemy airfields and not actually drop ordinance!, gets shot down all the time.

 

 

Different Styles of AI Maybe a good thing though, (Ie Era Specific Styles, like: WWII AI, VIETNAM AI, KOREA AI, MODERN AI).

 

Same AI, but different styles to better reflect Era specific maneuvers.

[Archer7]

You mean like:

 

I'm entirely unaware of your AI mod but generally yes, I would expect if you have 10 different aircraft going about with 10 different AIs the chance of unexpected behaviour would be greater than if all AI is handled by a consistent group: ED.

So it may as well stay a mod/mods, not modules. Besides modules sound as something that would cost me money.

[cichlidfan]

I suspect that the time involved in coding a decent AI for a single aircraft, or other unit, would make the end product cost prohibitive to bring to market.

[Flagrum]

I'm entirely unaware of your AI mod but generally yes, I would expect if you have 10 different aircraft going about with 10 different AIs the chance of unexpected behaviour would be greater than if all AI is handled by a consistent group: ED.

So it may as well stay a mod/mods, not modules. Besides modules sound as something that would cost me money.

Perhaps my wording was inprecise, perhaps "open AI API" instead of "module" would fit better. The idea behind it is not to have various, interchangable AIs for one aircraft so that different players could end up with different behaviours for the same aircraft. I was rather thinking to allow 3rd party devs to implement their own AI logic - that could differ from the default AI that is currently available from ED.

[SkateZilla]

I'm entirely unaware of your AI mod but generally yes, I would expect if you have 10 different aircraft going about with 10 different AIs the chance of unexpected behaviour would be greater than if all AI is handled by a consistent group: ED.

So it may as well stay a mod/mods, not modules. Besides modules sound as something that would cost me money.

 

the example I posted was AI Modeled after specific people/traits.. in which case, an AI modeled after me would do as I said above.

[Flagrum]

I suspect that the time involved in coding a decent AI for a single aircraft, or other unit, would make the end product cost prohibitive to bring to market.

If the current AI logic could be extracted by ED from DCS:W and transformed into some kind of "template" for my idea of an "external AI API/module" so that 3rd party devs could use it directly - or modify it to adjust the behaviour to their needs.

 

This is something that is currently impossible because all AI units share the same AI logic and just "modding" it is probably not viable or even impossible.

 

Yeah, I know, it probably would require quite some efford from at least EDs side and the costs could be certainly a factor. But no matter of what idea/wish we talk here in this subform, one thing is certain: none of these would come for free. :o)

[7rooper]

Leave the AI stuff to ED only. Having other developers introduce new AI behaviour will only result in more bugs.

I'm pretty sure ED is aware that a modern plane combat tactics are different to a WWII's and they would probably have a patch in mind

[Flagrum]

It is not just WWII vs. jets. I see it rather similar to what SkateZilla wrote: different aircraft of different or even the same type in different eras in different conflicts have used different tactics.

 

And the base idea is, "leave the AI stuff to those who know best how the AI should behave" - and I would suspect that are the developers of a specific aircraft who know it intimately. I can see that ED is willing and/or able to adjust the AI for every second new 3rd party dev aircraft - not in the long term. Or rather, maybe the effords necessary to adjust the AI again and again is perhaps better invested in opening the AI logic for other devs.

 

Besides that this could probably open completely new possibilities for the sim as whole (mid to long term).

 

But anyhow, we won't find a definite answer here if this is viable or not. I just hope that the ED devs read that and that it might inspire them perhaps a bit.

[vicx]

Flagrum raises a good idea in general. I had no idea it would be focused on AI but as an example it is a interesting one. I was hoping this thread would be about adding operational modules but we'll leave that for another thread.

 

The example Skatezilla provides for having a multiple styles of AI per aircraft to reflect combat eras is a good one and AI personalities aka 'the showboating AI' is also a good idea.

 

I came to this thread after reading this -> thread and I was thinking that the reason that ED can't just let the AI aircraft focus on all aircraft equally is that the player is the random seed that is required to make the whole thing look more realsitic. If you take away the human as target then the AI get into predictable and very AI-looking (mathematical) combat. You swap one problem for another.

 

Opening up the AI for mods would let ED focus on the engine and leave the AI as an aesthetic for the players to work on. Yes the results would be a bit random but that might be a good thing. You could have a WW2 squadron made up of different types of rookies, old chums, and aces and that would be cool.

Edited November 7, 2014 by vicx
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