MiG 21 vs modern fighters

[Hook47]

I've only gotten a handful of kills online. Only Eagles I believe.

However I watched a track recently where an Eagle tried to get me with 120Cs and I manuvered away pretty easy. To be honest I did the perfekt turn at the right time and so on, mostly luck though. Still...

Edit: It would be fun to watch that track Darkwolf. Would you mind?

 

This is realistic. Despite modern organizations like Boeing preaching the future of perfect BVR only fantasies, the hard truth is that a BVR Missile can and will be defeated more often than not when used and even the latest of US BVR missiles still realistically boast a low PK rate. Knowing this, it is kind of scary knowing the US Air force is spending a trillion on a fighter depending almost totally on winning BVR fights exclusively :/

[GGTharos]

This is realistic.

 

It isn't.

 

Despite modern organizations like Boeing preaching the future of perfect BVR only fantasies, the hard truth is that a BVR Missile can and will be defeated more often than not when used and even the latest of US BVR missiles still realistically boast a low PK rate. Knowing this, it is kind of scary knowing the US Air force is spending a trillion on a fighter depending almost totally on winning BVR fights exclusively :/

 

They're boasting a 0.7-0.8Pk rate if you eliminate known out-of-parameter shots. If you don't, the Pk is closer to 0.6.

 

There are no MiG-21's out there in the real world that have been engaged with an F-15, even with OLD missiles, and have flown again.

 

What is realistic is evading missiles with specific maneuvers; a MiG-21 does not have the g available or the equipment to help you orient correctly. A 120 launched inside a certain range requires you to be very lucky to shake it when you don't have the defensive equipment to deal with it, and you'll never have enough g to avoid it in that range. However in DCS, such knowledge is not necessary.

The guidance is too poor, missiles have too much drag and not enough lift to generate enough g to complete an intercept.

 

TL;DR: You have it really good in-game, in a pretty unrealistic way when it comes to BVR.

[Bidartarra]

It isn't.

 

 

 

They're boasting a 0.7-0.8Pk rate if you eliminate known out-of-parameter shots. If you don't, the Pk is closer to 0.6.

 

There are no MiG-21's out there in the real world that have been engaged with an F-15, even with OLD missiles, and have flown again.

 

What is realistic is evading missiles with specific maneuvers; a MiG-21 does not have the g available or the equipment to help you orient correctly. A 120 launched inside a certain range requires you to be very lucky to shake it when you don't have the defensive equipment to deal with it, and you'll never have enough g to avoid it in that range. However in DCS, such knowledge is not necessary.

The guidance is too poor, missiles have too much drag and not enough lift to generate enough g to complete an intercept.

 

TL;DR: You have it really good in-game, in a pretty unrealistic way when it comes to BVR.

 

To be honest I dont think I shot down much F-15 head on, the slammer comes to the face often in those situations.

 

I dont even carry CMs any more they don't do anything, my only bet is hiding in the terrain early on, other wise I'm doomed.

 

Not sure we have it "really good", because of lack of range, limited radar, poor vis and stuff. I get your point though.

 

I'm all for more realism so I'm very fine with amraams being "as they should be" (whatever it is, im no expert)

 

You are in the ED tester team, this was never forwarded to the devs (too much drag etc...)?

 

I might be wrong but you seem quite unpleased with the fact that Mig 21s can kill F-15s in the game. Like it's not our fault as 21 users we didnt make it this way.

 

I hope there will be no hard feelings, it is not my intention.

 

 

PS : my only amraam experience is with Falcon BMS where they seem to behave quite differently, they are a lot more effective and seem to be simulated more deeply.

I don't really use the F-15 in DCS. off the top of my head: against a Mig 29 the DCS F-15 Misses at 9nm, the falcon gets a kill at 17nm (manuvering targets, both using AIM120B)

Edited August 12, 2015 by Bidartarra

[Zomba]

I've never shot down a head to head F-15 either. I prefer to stay away from the pointy end of the modern fighters if I can help it.

 

I'm noticing odd behavior with the 120s now that I pay more attention to them. They seem to hit this energy brick wall at range which kills their turn capability. High drag? Also F-15 has a difficult time acquiring and maintaining lock when using terrain. From oblique angle this makes sense, but even from a more look down position it has inconsistency. I remember reading an account from an F-15 pilot in a training exercise against Mirages that were scraping rocks and how he was having a lot of difficulty maintaining a lock. I was surprised that the ballpark behaviour of this effect was in DCS. Pretty cool.

[GGTharos]

Not sure we have it "really good", because of lack of range, limited radar, poor vis and stuff. I get your point though.

 

Yeah, comparatively speaking.

 

You are in the ED tester team, this was never forwarded to the devs (too much drag etc...)?

 

No comment on that, there are things you an look at in the mod forums though that might give you a better understanding.

Also I reported the MiG-21's missile issues to Cobra, but it's up to them to act on those. Likewise, your radar shouldn't be tracking in a look-down situation, and it shouldn't appreciate you operating it near mountains.

 

I might be wrong but you seem quite unpleased with the fact that Mig 21s can kill F-15s in the game. Like it's not our fault as 21 users we didnt make it this way.

 

It isn't your fault and you're wrong; I don't want to pollute the MiG-21 thread with all this though, so I'll keep it brief: You should have a practically UN-eveadable slammer reaching you by the time you're in range to lock an F-15.

But we're not just talking slammers; in the WVR arena (and right now DCS is pretty much compressing things into WVR with the way things are), the MiG-21's missiles actually out-perform the other aircraft's missiles. Like I said, that's an LN thing, up to them to fix if they are so inclined :)

 

I hope there will be no hard feelings, it is not my intention.

 

It's all good.

 

PS : my only amraam experience is with Falcon BMS where they seem to behave quite differently, they are a lot more effective and seem to be simulated more deeply.

 

They give a better feel than the DCS ones yes, but they have their own issues - for one, they're seriously over-modeled in certain respects, last time I looked at them ... but that way years ago. I mean, 2000kts at 30nm ... kinda iffy :)

 

I don't really use the F-15 in DCS. off the top of my head: against a Mig 29 the DCS F-15 Misses at 9nm, the falcon gets a kill at 17nm (manuvering targets, both using AIM120B)

 

Yep, and this sort of performance as per falcon is also pretty much what's reported from RL.

[GGTharos]

The F-15 radar doesn't care if you're on the road, or 50' above the road, or 25000' above the road. It'll have zero problems tracking. What causes problems is interrupted line of sight, and 'scraping the rocks' to me implies that this is what the Mirage pilots were going for.

 

The F-15 has proven ability to track and destroy very low flying targets; before AMRAAM even F-15's attacked and nearly scored hits on landing MiG-25s with Sparrows. One MiG-25 was damaged by a nearby impact IIRC. Missiles operating near the ground have other problems, some solve it by using a shaped trajectory.

 

The F-15 radar in-game is under-performing; the MiG-21 radar (from what I have been able to see - I keep putting buying the 21 off but I want to) is able to be used in look-down and it shouldn't be.

 

I remember reading an account from an F-15 pilot in a training exercise against Mirages that were scraping rocks and how he was having a lot of difficulty maintaining a lock. I was surprised that the ballpark behaviour of this effect was in DCS. Pretty cool.

[Bidartarra]

Yeah, comparatively speaking.

 

 

 

No comment on that, there are things you an look at in the mod forums though that might give you a better understanding.

Also I reported the MiG-21's missile issues to Cobra, but it's up to them to act on those. Likewise, your radar shouldn't be tracking in a look-down situation, and it shouldn't appreciate you operating it near mountains.

 

Will do.

In my personal xp it doesn't work when the target is below me, ie won't find it (-1.5 degrees being the max it can see at)

 

 

It isn't your fault and you're wrong; I don't want to pollute the MiG-21 thread with all this though, so I'll keep it brief: You should have a practically UN-eveadable slammer reaching you by the time you're in range to lock an F-15.

But we're not just talking slammers; in the WVR arena (and right now DCS is pretty much compressing things into WVR with the way things are), the MiG-21's missiles actually out-perform the other aircraft's missiles. Like I said, that's an LN thing, up to them to fix if they are so inclined :)

[/Quote]

 

Yep, I suppose we should get a rwr tone at 8nm when it goes pitbull.

Though I had R13 going to track the sun a lot, ie I don't take a rear shot if we are facing the sun, as the missile will try to shoot the sun down (with, thank God, no real success lol)

But I rarely ever do anything but rear shots with those because they don't seem to pull much g if I'm on the 3-9 line of the target, and they hate flares.

 

 

It's all good.

 

Cool.

 

They give a better feel than the DCS ones yes, but they have their own issues - for one, they're seriously over-modeled in certain respects, last time I looked at them ... but that way years ago. I mean, 2000kts at 30nm ... kinda iffy :)

Haha not anymore .

Edited August 13, 2015 by Bidartarra

[Zomba]

Yes, I suspect I was momentarily breaking LOS as I was rolling over ridgelines, even though he was at a steep slant to me. He would pick me up again soon after, only to lose lock again as I maneuvered. I also suspect that Mig-21 has a relatively smaller simulated radar cross-section in DCS. I don't know how that compares to RL. It was very educational to explore these aspects and to see the challenges the FC F-15 has when dealing with that sort of flight profile. I would hazard a guess that the RL F-15 might even have predictive reacquire capability, but that's just a guess.

 

The Mig-21 radar in DCS is a bit different. It can't look down to search and acquire. It can't acquire from a very low perspective looking ahead, even if target is slightly elevated; the ground interference overwhelms the display with clutter. Momentarily pitching up and using up tilt can give you a small window to search before you climb too high, but you have to wait for ownship to gain a little bit of standoff from the ground. This feels like it takes forever as you know you are presenting yourself to be counter-detected. Once lock is achieved it can track looking down and won't lose lock unless it reaches FOV limits. That last part seems a bit ambitious for a spin scan radar, it should be just seeing a wall of returns and not be able to pick out the target that has a similar signal strength. Also it's counter ECM ability makes ECM useless. Actually ECM makes it easier as it gives you a very obvious bearing to target, but maybe that's limitations of DCS engine.

 

Besides all of that the Mig-21 is a beautifully realised module and a real joy to operate and I'd highly recommend it. It's a very visceral experience with a flight model that conveys the unique character of this type of aircraft. LN's workmanship is impressive.

 

Even when merging with F-15 there is a slim high-energy envelope where you can stay with them in a turn, but if the F-15 pilot is aware of that they will try and force you out of the zone and get you slow, at which point the energy bleed is disastrous. But if F-15 pilot is the turn and burn type then even simple high and low yo-yo can help you maintain energy if they don't know how to counter that and just stay with their turn. It just depends on the pilot really. I think a lot of them are just really complacent because of the obvious superiority and that gets them in trouble. The video I posted above splashing a modern fighter happened just after he had killed two F-15s who are not bad pilots. He got lazy and complacent as he orbited and then RTBed thinking if his radar and RWR are clear then there is no one near. It wasn't my skill that killed him, but rather his complacency. All he had to do was turn and thumb his radar down and I was in a very bad situation, that's why I stayed low for so long. I actually thought he was contrailing to lure me out of hiding, but no he just didn't care. The one thing the Mig did bring to the table that is "superior" is that it does accelerate very well to catch up with targets.

 

These radar issues aren't unsolvable and I hope LN takes a look at it. It will hurt us, but makes for a more accurate Mig and even more of a challenge!

[Hadwell]

basically... you can kill anything with anything, if it's unaware, or if it thinks its safe, saying a 21 shouldn't be able to kill a 15 is like saying the 15 can't be killed at all by anything...

 

some F-15 is tunnel visioned, or relying on their radar/rwr, not looking out the window, or just thinking their superior in any way shape or form is all it takes to kill one.

 

if you practice enough in the mig-21, you can make it do crazy things, trick the 15 into thinking you crashed, learn what it can do with certain quantities of fuel, etc...

 

there are a few things the 21 can do that the 15 can't, one example: go full 2nd afterburner, pull back on the stick all the way, you'll find the ailerons don't do anything, but if you feather the rudder, you can do some pretty insane high alpha corkscrew rolls all the way down to about 230kph(with 2nd ab still on), but you gotta survive till the 15 gets close enough to do it...

 

anyway, you could call it luck, but luck alone doesn't produce multiple kills without dying, skill is required.

 

the radar is static vertically, so technically it can't look down... but yeah it shouldn't be able to lock or even see targets landed at a runway... but it can...

 

normally, the reason I can see stuff so close to the ground is because anything in the air is above me... always fly close to the ground...

Edited August 13, 2015 by Hadwell

[GGTharos]

Will do.

In my personal xp it doesn't work when the target is below me, ie won't find it (-1.5 degrees being the max it can see at)

 

What if you point the nose down? :)

 

Though I had R13 going to track the sun a lot, ie I don't take a rear shot if we are facing the sun, as the missile will try to shoot the sun down (with, thank God, no real success lol)

 

This is common to all heaters in-game IIRC, which is good :)

 

But I rarely ever do anything but rear shots with those because they don't seem to pull much g if I'm on the 3-9 line of the target, and they hate flares.

 

Depends on the distance you're taking the shot at. Certainly R-13/R-3 should be 'easy' to rmin compared to more modern missiles, but it's mostly due to seeker issues (According to vietnam era reports about R-3 :) ), on the other hand, it should still be pretty maneuverable.

[GGTharos]

Yes, I suspect I was momentarily breaking LOS as I was rolling over ridgelines, even though he was at a steep slant to me. He would pick me up again soon after, only to lose lock again as I maneuvered.

 

There are game issues that I won't go into.

 

I also suspect that Mig-21 has a relatively smaller simulated radar cross-section in DCS. I don't know how that compares to RL. It was very educational to explore these aspects and to see the challenges the FC F-15 has when dealing with that sort of flight profile. I would hazard a guess that the RL F-15 might even have predictive reacquire capability, but that's just a guess.

 

MiG-21's were picked up by F-4's from 50nm away as soon as they were wheels up according to the have doughnut report. That's a smaller, older radar compared to what the F-15C uses.

 

As for radar memory modes, yes, they exist. And in TWS there should be tracks, but we don't have them :)

 

Once lock is achieved it can track looking down and won't lose lock unless it reaches FOV limits. That last part seems a bit ambitious for a spin scan radar, it should be just seeing a wall of returns and not be able to pick out the target that has a similar signal strength.

 

It should drop the lock here.

 

Also it's counter ECM ability makes ECM useless. Actually ECM makes it easier as it gives you a very obvious bearing to target, but maybe that's limitations of DCS engine.

 

Yes, it's limitations of the engine. Basically it just shouldn't be able to lock a modern fighter - f-15's, su-27's, mig-29s ... never mind modern bombers :)

 

Besides all of that the Mig-21 is a beautifully realised module and a real joy to operate and I'd highly recommend it. It's a very visceral experience with a flight model that conveys the unique character of this type of aircraft. LN's workmanship is impressive.

 

Yep, planning on getting it as one of the aggressor birds for the squadron :)

 

Even when merging with F-15 there is a slim high-energy envelope where you can stay with them in a turn, but if the F-15 pilot is aware of that they will try and force you out of the zone and get you slow, at which point the energy bleed is disastrous. But if F-15 pilot is the turn and burn type then even simple high and low yo-yo can help you maintain energy if they don't know how to counter that and just stay with their turn. It just depends on the pilot really.

 

Yep, it depends on the pilot. You actually have zero advantages in the MiG-21, save for some very, very narrow slow, high AoA stuff. In a 'fair' fight, if you beat the other guy who's got an eagle, mig or flanker, you did something neat and your opponent should go back to school so to speak ;)

 

I think a lot of them are just really complacent because of the obvious superiority and that gets them in trouble. The video I posted above splashing a modern fighter happened just after he had killed two F-15s who are not bad pilots. He got lazy and complacent as he orbited and then RTBed thinking if his radar and RWR are clear then there is no one near. It wasn't my skill that killed him, but rather his complacency.

 

Most people don't know BFM, and understand tactics less. The situation lends itself to ambush tactics and the MiG-21 guys use them and use them well. :)

 

All he had to do was turn and thumb his radar down and I was in a very bad situation, that's why I stayed low for so long. I actually thought he was contrailing to lure me out of hiding, but no he just didn't care. The one thing the Mig did bring to the table that is "superior" is that it does accelerate very well to catch up with targets.

 

Yeah, that might need to be looked at as well. There's no way a miG-21 can match the fc3 jets in acceleration, realistically speaking (then again, I don't know if it does so in game! Has anyone tried a side-by-side race?). But sometimes being just a few seconds behind might not matter either.

 

These radar issues aren't unsolvable and I hope LN takes a look at it. It will hurt us, but makes for a more accurate Mig and even more of a challenge!

 

It's about accuracy of representation ... if you have an opponent like say an F-4 or F-5, then giving the MiG 'more' makes things kinda icky. This is assuming that an F-4/5 wouldn't be over-modeled somehow :)

[Bidartarra]

basically... you can kill anything with anything, if it's unaware, or if it thinks its safe, saying a 21 shouldn't be able to kill a 15 is like saying the 15 can't be killed at all by anything...

 

This.

We get our kills, using our enemy's mistakes, over confidence kills, no matter what you are flying.

 

The sim might not fully reflecting reality, it still takes a lot of skills and patience to be decent in the 21.

 

I'm not even halfway there myself.

[GGTharos]

basically... you can kill anything with anything, if it's unaware, or if it thinks its safe, saying a 21 shouldn't be able to kill a 15 is like saying the 15 can't be killed at all by anything...

 

No, saying a MiG21 should be a goner if in front of an F-15 within 10 nm is correct. Don't care what maneuvers you try to pull, your chances of survival should be tiny. I'm not talking about ambush tactics. Of course you can also read Su-27/MiG-29 etc here.

 

some F-15 is tunnel visioned, or relying on their radar/rwr, not looking out the window, or just thinking their superior in any way shape or form is all it takes to kill one.

They're just not looking, like most people. The typical flight online is all about going out on your own, threading the valleys apparently, and seeing what your score can be. There's no coordination or even alternate sense of purpose/mission and no planning, so it's perfect for ambush tactics - people will fly out right in front of you in those valleys and all you have to do is come a bit off axis to be out of their scan zone :)

 

there are a few things the 21 can do that the 15 can't, one example: go full 2nd afterburner, pull back on the stick all the way, you'll find the ailerons don't do anything, but if you feather the rudder, you can do some pretty insane high alpha corkscrew rolls all the way down to about 230kph(with 2nd ab still on), but you gotta survive till the 15 gets close enough to do it...

Wait until we get the eagle's rudder working :) But The MiG-21 does and should have this narrow advantage at slow, high AoA flight. Should be very narrow though - again, not talking about the guy on your six being surprised by it, just plain airframe comparison. Edited August 13, 2015 by GGTharos

[Bidartarra]

What if you point the nose down? :)

 

haha, but as everyone flies at tree top level now pointing my nose down can be a bad investment lol

 

his is common to all heaters in-game IIRC, which is good :)

 

indeed :)

 

Depends on the distance you're taking the shot at. Certainly R-13/R-3 should be 'easy' to rmin compared to more modern missiles, but it's mostly due to seeker issues (According to vietnam era reports about R-3 :) ), on the other hand, it should still be pretty maneuverable.

 

I haven't tried to shoot them in situation requiring high maneuverability tbh, I usually wait for my opponent to make a mistake and get a nice rear shot.

[Zomba]

Yeah, that might need to be looked at as well. There's no way a miG-21 can match the fc3 jets in acceleration, realistically speaking (then again, I don't know if it does so in game! Has anyone tried a side-by-side race?). But sometimes being just a few seconds behind might not matter either.

 

I should have been a bit clearer. He wasn't accelerating, but was sitting on what I estimate about m0.8 in a shallow climb with bingo fuel.

 

I've done drag races against F-15 and typically F-15 has better early acceleration, In transonic the difference is small, but as speed increases in m1.4 or so the Mig takes slight advantage all the way up from there, and of course has higher top speed. Once through transonic drag transition it accelerates reasonably well, but needs careful engine management at near max speed. The F-15 has vastly superior climb and energy retention. Also F-15 can recover lost energy much better. Despite being quick the Mig doesn't have an overly powerful engine, even with emergency reheat. It rather relies on diminutive size, aerodynamics and typically light load, I think.

[TheSnark]

I've raced with F-15's on the aerobatics server and I can assure you that they are quite a bit faster on the acceleration.

[Exorcet]

I've not done head to head racing, but I've made some casual comparisons and the F-15 seemed to be outright superior. The gap was smallest at low supersonic speeds if I recall right, but down low or past M 1.6 the F-15 wins handily. I should go back and time the MiG's performance. The comparisons I made were with clean aircraft I think.

 

They give a better feel than the DCS ones yes, but they have their own issues - for one, they're seriously over-modeled in certain respects, last time I looked at them ... but that way years ago. I mean, 2000kts at 30nm ... kinda iffy

 

I think you remember correctly. The first few times I went up against ER's I learned that you basically need to turn around as soon as they're launched to get away. Missiles in Falcon did at least seem to have a much better approach to lofting though.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Exorcet

[zaelu]

Should situation differ from F15 firing a AIM120 and still tracking from F15 firing the same missile but pull away and lose track after the missile had gone active? I'm thinking that the radar on the missile is no match on the one of the aircraft it self and given the mountains, Mig21 size and maneuvering and the depth of the simulation they should differ in a observable measure.

 

I say this because I have seen on tacview quite a few time the F15s firing in almost fire and forget way its missiles. On multiplayer.

[Bidartarra]

Should situation differ from F15 firing a AIM120 and still tracking from F15 firing the same missile but pull away and lose track after the missile had gone active? I'm thinking that the radar on the missile is no match on the one of the aircraft it self and given the mountains, Mig21 size and maneuvering and the depth of the simulation they should differ in a observable measure.

 

I say this because I have seen on tacview quite a few time the F15s firing in almost fire and forget way its missiles. On multiplayer.

 

Interesting thought, I wonder what happens too if the launching plane breaks lock before the missile is pitbull, will it keep its course until pitbull where hopefully the onboard radar will pick a target?

 

I think it's possible to shoot an amraam in boresight mode in the general direction of the enemy, the missile will then track which ever targets it finds. This doesn't really have a big Pk I think, it's more like a defensive shot.

In DCS they can only be shot slaved to the radar I think.

[Darkwolf]

@Zaelu : Aim120 is just useless against Mig-21 if you fire and forget. During a week we encountered F15 with migs above the sea, and they were in a dead end :

 

If they were supporting amraams, they would get a decent Pk but come in R3-R NEZ and get killed.

If they were fire-and-forget they amraam, the amraam would never get anyone.

 

In anyway, all CAP i ran over the sea ended in a lot of wasted $ in the sea, along with several F15 wrecks. They would shoot volley of Amraam without getting me.

 

 

Worst ennemi for the mig is the sukkhoi.

[Frostie]

I can imagine a few AMRAAMs having 'Darkwolf' written on them about now. :D

[Bidartarra]

 

If they were supporting amraams, they would get a decent Pk but come in R3-R NEZ and get killed.

If they were fire-and-forget they amraam, the amraam would never get anyone.

 

In anyway, all CAP i ran over the sea ended in a lot of wasted $ in the sea, along with several F15 wrecks. They would shoot volley of Amraam without getting me.

 

 

Worst ennemi for the mig is the sukkhoi.

 

I don't agree on that, taking a F15 head on (against a pilot tracking you) never works for me, a slammer to the face every time. At those ranges the amraam is pitbull right after the launch. No need to support the missile I think. The only chance is masking behind the terrain.

 

But coordination between mig 21s can do wonders against modern jets.

[Zomba]

Yeah I learnt the hard way to stay away from the pointy end. :spam_laser:

[zaelu]

At those ranges the amraam is pitbull right after the launch.

 

The question is, is that radar on the AIM120 sufficient to track the Mig anyway and the missile is capable of holding on Mig21 in all cases?

[Darkwolf]

I don't think that's a black or white thing. that's something like way less chances than a Su-27 or comparable target size.