What's with P-51 versus Fw 190 in Dogfights ?

[SnowTiger]

I don't get it. I think there has been some Drastic Mis-Modeling of the Dora's Performance OR that of the P-51.

 

In all accounts of Statistics (available throughout the internet), the P-51 could outperform the Dora on just about Every Account with exception of Climb Rate (speaking of latter war models).

 

While the P-51 is At LEAST 50 mph faster (70mph faster at 28,000 ft), and shot down practically every Dora near the end of WW2, I'm finding that the DCS P-51 is drastically Slower and WAY easier to critically damage .. with one or two bullets than the Fw 190,, ever after the latter has been shot to shit and parts flying off of it.

 

It is SUPER Frustrating to me and to many other people.

I think this is something that seriously needs to be looked at by the software designers. Otherwise there is little sense in anyone flying the P-51 in head-to-head battles in DCS World online.

 

PS> If you need any of those statistics and can't find them ... you aren't looking.

[gavagai]

You need to present your sources. Never take them for granted. If the evidence is on your side people will see it. If the evidence is ambiguous, then we'll get a 20 page thread about the supposed bias of ww2aircraftperformance.org and technical discussions of aviation fuel that you need a PhD in organic chemistry to understand.

[javelina1]

a P-51 was 70mph faster than a Dora, at 28K feet? I'll have to hunt down some spec's. please post your links.

[Jumbik]

From my experience, Dora is a lot faster and accelerates more quickly in DCS than P-51. P-51 is more agile and can out turn Dora.

 

From my limited experience I had in P-51, I was never able to catch any Dora pilot if I did not take on them by surprise.

 

I can't comment on how it was in WW2 as I do not know that.

[ophiuchus]

I think that at the point the P-51D went into fight, the pilots of Fw-190s were so poorly trained, that any advantage given to them by their aircraft were lost because of that... On the other hand, I can see in various citations from many wartime pilots, that they tend to glorify machines, which brought them safely home, or in which they scored most of their victories... So it depends on who you ask.

[Ultra]

Found this after looking for a bit. They don't actually say which versions they were talking about though. It seemed to me they are talking about late war models.

 

This snip is from American Warplanes of WWII by Colonel John D. Current.

The first quote is originally from Fighter Tactics and Strategy, 1914-1970 by Edward H. Sims.

I don't know if the second quote is originally from somewhere else.

[javelina1]

... the P-51D went into fight, the pilots of Fw-190s were so poorly trained, that any advantage given to them by their aircraft were lost because of that...

 

Exactly... (the pilot skill in the majority of the engagements, makes the diff).

[otto]

@Snowtiger

 

As far as speed goes i think the p-51 is too slow. But i only know it's too slow by the old il2 standards. I'm no p51 expert.

 

But it does turn a lot better than a dora so you should win most dogfights .

 

 

"and shot down practically every Dora near the end of WW2"

 

This doesn't mean anything. At the end of ww2 the allies air superiority was so vast there was nothing the dora pilots could do.It's not their fault the nazi leaders were mad :) and didn't capitulate .+ most german pilots at this stage of the war had no training.

A pilot recalls being ordered to atack 1000 bombers escorted by 800 fighters with 40 planes.Plane performance is irrelevant here.

[Mike5560]

Based on my limited (SP only) experience the dora seems to indeed climb/accelerate better but the P-51 has a turning rate advantage. I set up a 3 P-51 vs 4 Fw-190 head on dogfight mission with me as one of the P-51s. In a one circle dogfight, Im able to get on his six after the initial 180 turn and lag persuit in the opposite direction.

Two circle fight the Dora resorts to the zoom climb, dive down/ repeat once you start getting behind them. I tend to stall before they do in a climb, so the seconds prior to that are critical for lining up a good shot. I have to manage the throttle since oil temps get high after repeating this a few times.

 

It doesn't take a lot of hits to kill, IME as long as you can get close enough. It's just me but I prefer the fixed sight over the gyro. The gyro is supposed to work better but it messes with my head.

[Isegrim]

Please hold in mind that in the end of the war most pilots where Boys without any flying experience (Flying the third day or so) and the where flying more or less alone (1 or 2 Fighters).

 

Most of this young pilots was told. If you see enemy fighters >> Bail out.

[GrapeJam]

Pilot skills mean jack when it comes to speed and rate of climb, ok?

 

Here's the problem with DCS P51D: The plane is limited to 67"hg of manifold pressure, a setting that was used with 100/130 octane fuel for like 2 months when the early P51D blocks was introduced into service, after ward it was raised to 70"hg of manifold pressure.

 

But for most it's service life, USAAF P51D ran at 75"hg with 150 octane fuel, and British Mustang IV ran on 81"hg(and many USAAF pilots ran on this setting).

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/75inch-clearance-v-1650-7.jpg

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustangtest.html

 

Pacific USAAF P51Ds ran at 80"hg with 115/145 octane fuel.

http://www.mustangsmustangs.us/thehangar/index.php?topic=145.0;wap2

Here's the unhistorical thing: The P51D we have a in game is a late version of the P51D, indicated by the presence of the tail fin, tail radar. There's no reason for it to be limited at 67"hg, it should run at 75"hg at the very least.

 

And worse, the wings instantly come off when you pull like 7Gs at clean configuration, that's the ultimate load limit at maximum loads with external fuel tanks, at clean configuration, the P51D has a load limit 8Gs, a safety factor of 1.5 and ultimate wings failure at 12Gs.

 

And at 81"hg, the P51D indeed did outperform the Dora(even running on 2.02 ata with engine gaps sealed) at all altitude ;)

Edited December 1, 2014 by GrapeJam

[SnowTiger]

One thing I surely concede, and that is during the latter war years, most of the German Fighter Pilots were young, inexperienced pilots because the older, more experience were practically all dead already. So this would certainly have an affect in any head-to-head battle.

 

That said, the performance of the P-51D was said to be much better as I described originally. At least certainly better than it is performing in DCS. And YES, I am talking about a P-51 with Minimal Fuel to keep the overall weight down for dog-fighting.

 

Here is a quote (LINK to full document): There are many sites that mirror these or similar specs.

QUOTE:

"In the autumn of 1942, plans had been laid to develop the Mustang as a long-range fighter, fitted with the Rolls-Royce Merlin engine. After overcoming early teething troubles, the worst of which was persistent gun jamming, the P-51B clearly demonstrated its tremendous potential. By early 1944 the aircraft had surpassed the Fw 190A in terms of performance, the latter aircraft's top speed being almost 50mph slower at all heights and 70 mph slower above 28,000ft. There was little to choose between the two when it came to maximum rate of climb, while the Mustang could always out-dive the Fw 190A. Again, in the turning circle both were closely matched, and if anything the Mustang was slightly better. However, not even a Mustang could approach the Fw 190A's outstanding rate of roll. Revisions in design and armament followed, and the P-51D/K became the best of the wartime Mustang breed. "

 

All I know is that when flying ONLINE, the Dora seems to fly WAY Faster than the P-51 in practically any situation. It's ability to bug out from a stand-still is hard to believe. One minute it is beside you going the same speed and the next minute it leaves the P-51 in the dust like it was standing still. This is what frustrates me the most.

While being a lighter plane, I don't see it having THAT kind of acceleration. I don't have a problem with the Dora accelerating faster than the P-51 when side-by-side, I just don't see it taking off like a rocket as it does in DCS.

Based on my (limited) knowledge and experience with the P-51, I feel that at the very least, it should be able to out-run and thus evade the Dora if and when necessary.

I am no dog-fighting expert but I was at one time a deadly opponent in "Aces High II" which had similar realistic flight and weather characteristics. I got shot up allot too, but it was more like 2:1 for me most of the time. So maybe I'm just spoiled by that experience.

[Ultra]

@ SnowTiger

 

While I agree with you that the speed advantage of the Dora, seems to me, to be not quite right, I think your link isn't relevant enough. It only provides a good comparison of the P-51B and the Fw 190A, the wrong models. It mentions our model of Mustang but doesn't go into any details.

 

On a different note, I think GrapeJam made a good point about the fuel types.

[Isegrim]

SnowTiger

 

Keep also another thing in mind.

All German Planes of WWII have best performance in low to medium altitude 0-6000m.

The P-51 is a High Altitude Fighter, it simply has its best performance there and it does lose its advantages at lower Altitude.

 

The Allied forces did penetrate the German Airspace (later lets say territory) with Bombers+escort normaly at ~8500-9500m

 

In MP Battles nearly never a Dogfight happens at such altitudes.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Isegrim

[Dalminar]

Flying the P-51D vs the AI, I find Fw-190s easier to shoot down. The AI Fw-190 seem more fragile than the AI P-51D that seem to soak up ammo. I am using the vs P-51D and vs Fw-190 missions that came with P-51D game. Don't know what difficulty those AI are, but it is probably on easy. I use the same tactic vs both P-51D and Fw-190. I use WEP most of the time and I just keep doing vertical loops until I somehow end up on the AI tail.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Dalminar

[blkspade]

Based on my limited (SP only) experience the dora seems to indeed climb/accelerate better but the P-51 has a turning rate advantage. I set up a 3 P-51 vs 4 Fw-190 head on dogfight mission with me as one of the P-51s. In a one circle dogfight, Im able to get on his six after the initial 180 turn and lag persuit in the opposite direction.

Two circle fight the Dora resorts to the zoom climb, dive down/ repeat once you start getting behind them. I tend to stall before they do in a climb, so the seconds prior to that are critical for lining up a good shot. I have to manage the throttle since oil temps get high after repeating this a few times.

 

It doesn't take a lot of hits to kill, IME as long as you can get close enough. It's just me but I prefer the fixed sight over the gyro. The gyro is supposed to work better but it messes with my head.

 

You really need to be completely on top of your energy management in the P-51. I have the opposite problem of nearly overtaking the AI Dora in the climb most of the time. If I take too long trying to line up the guns I tend to end up colliding in the climb.

[Virun]

1) P-51: Dry weight: 3466kg. Engine: 1595hp max. t/w ratio: 0.46

2) Fw-190D-9: Dry weight: 3490kg Engine: 2100hp max with MW-50. t/w ratio: 0.60

 

Guess which one accelerates faster? :) And moreover dora's max power is at low altitudes while p-51 is good at high altitude. Forget that myth about the astonishing P-51 destroying any german fighter without any problem.

[Isegrim]

1) P-51: Dry weight: 3466kg. Engine: 1595hp max. t/w ratio: 0.46

2) Fw-190D-9: Dry weight: 3490kg Engine: 2100hp max with MW-50. t/w ratio: 0.60

 

Guess which one accelerates faster? :) And moreover dora's max power is at low altitudes while p-51 is good at high altitude. Forget that myth about the astonishing P-51 destroying any german fighter without any problem.

 

 

I wasnt talking about the Maximum Power of the engine. I meant the whole Airframe.

[mondo]

the P-51B clearly demonstrated its tremendous potential. By early 1944 the aircraft had surpassed the Fw 190A in terms of performance, the latter aircraft's top speed being almost 50mph slower at all heights and 70 mph slower above 28,000ft.

 

Other than the this talks about the 190A in general terms (it's like saying in general Spitfire, when the Mk1 is completely different to the XIV), you have to look at this in greater context. If I remember rightly the 190 used in that test was a used and slightly abused (tested by the British for some time) A4 that was accidentally landed in the UK. The P51B/C/D in reality faced the A6 initially and then A8s and occasionally D9s. It's highly unlikely a P51 ever encountered an A3 or A4 in combat other than RAF ones which flew over to Norway where the groups there had the older aircraft.

 

Sources for WW2 fighter performance is a bit of a dark place when it comes to captured aircraft - sometimes the fuel was wrong, the aircraft was old and lacked spare parts or in one case of a D9 that ended up in the US, it had the wrong wings attached to it. It's best to look at all sources before drawing conclusions.

 

I would suggest reading Johannes Steinhoff's "The Final Hours". He paints a very vivid picture about the state of the Luftwaffe in 1944/45. In his opinion at least - and it's quite a well respected one - it was nearly impossible to compare combat performance between aircraft anyway after 1943 because of the imbalance of numbers.

[GrapeJam]

1) P-51: Dry weight: 3466kg. Engine: 1595hp max. t/w ratio: 0.46

2) Fw-190D-9: Dry weight: 3490kg Engine: 2100hp max with MW-50. t/w ratio: 0.60

 

Guess which one accelerates faster? :) And moreover dora's max power is at low altitudes while p-51 is good at high altitude. Forget that myth about the astonishing P-51 destroying any german fighter without any problem.

 

Regarding max power, the V-1650-7 in game develope 1720hp at 67"hg at 10k feet , pretty common combat altitude in game.

 

And that is because ED chose to model the P51D at 67"hg max boost, a setting that it practically never used in combat, it ran at 70"hg minimum in combat. The maximum power output for the V-1650-7 engine for USAAF P51D that was used in combat was 1910hp, but the engine itself could be pushed to 2180hp at SL.

 

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/merlin66hpchart.jpg

 

Oh BTW, the 81"hg setting was allowed for 5 minutes, the fact that the in game P51D's engine dies after 5 minutes of continous running at 67"hg is pure bullshit, during real life test climb it was found that even at low speed climb, there was no overheating problem all the way to 30k feet.

 

The P51D in DCS is a travesty and complete disappointment.

Edited December 1, 2014 by GrapeJam

[Ultra]

While your points may be valid, it increasingly feels like "GrapeJam" might be a second account you're using to rip on the DCS Mustang. Just a feeling... :music_whistling:

[GrapeJam]

While your points may be valid, it increasingly feels like "GrapeJam" might be a second account you're using to rip on the DCS Mustang. Just a feeling... :music_whistling:

Hey, I bought DCS P51D because I love the Mustang and want to fly a sim that depict it accurately, ok?

 

And here I am seeing it ripping it's wings off instantly at 7gs, and the engine dies after 5 minutes of running at 67"hg with auto radiator, it's completely ********.

Edited December 1, 2014 by NineLine
1.1

[Ultra]

Hey, I bought DCS P51D because I love the Mustang and want to fly a sim that depict it accurately, ok?

 

And here I am seeing it ripping it's wings off instantly at 7gs, and the engine dies after 5 minutes of running at 67"hg with auto radiator, it's completely ********.

 

I get it, and I think DCS depicts the Mustang well. There's room for improvement and that's why we have these threads. Hopefully the developers look at these conversations once in a while. I know at least the moderators keep them somewhat up to date. I'm confident there will continue to be progress.

Edited December 1, 2014 by NineLine
Quoting a 1.1 violation

[Virun]

and the engine dies after 5 minutes of running at 67"hg with auto radiator, it's completely ********.

 

Just flown and tested. In straight flight engine with emergency power not dying for more than 15min(I'm too lazy to check for a bigger amount of time) at any altitude. Even in gentle climb it's not overheating. Just don't lose speed dramatically. Or you thought you can use emergency power endlessly at any speed?

 

Also, here is the test results:

 

At 0 alt dora(+MW50) faster then mustang for ~40km/h.

At 3000m speeds are equal.

At 6000m mustang faster then dora for ~40km/h.

 

I haven't tested higher altitudes but I think result is obvious - P-51 is high-altitude fighter as it was in real life and designed for.

Edited December 1, 2014 by NineLine
Quoting a 1.1 violation

[GrapeJam]

Or you thought you can use emergency power endlessly at any speed?

 

Lol.

 

Sorry, but 67"hg is not war emergency power for the Mustang, 75 "hg/81hg is.

 

And in fact during 67"hg test climb, the mustang showed no sign of overheating all the way to it's service sealing, that's more than 10 minutess at around 150mph. And we have report from pilots that pull 75"hg for around 15 minutes with no problem.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/353-hinchey-14nov44.jpg

RAF pilots were allowed 5 minutes of 81 "hg.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustangtest.html

The RAF's Mustang Pilot's Notes gives the Combat Engine Limitation as "81 ins. boost for 5 minutes when using 150 grade fuel"

 

There's no reason for the P51D's engine to die after immedietely 5 minutes of 67"hg usage.

I haven't tested higher altitudes but I think result is obvious - P-51 is high-altitude fighter as it was in real life and designed for.

 

Just because the P51 had good high altitude performance, doesn't mean that it didn't have good low altitude performance, in fact, the engine develope the most power at low altitude.

 

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/mustang-fig4.jpg

 

Now shave around 10 mph off for the P51D.

Edited December 1, 2014 by GrapeJam