R-27 ET "Anomalies"

[Alfa]

Alfa too? Ok, gotta reply to Alfa. I was saying that a maddogged 27ET is unlikely to acquire a target on its own at long range, so LOAL. Shepski asked what was long-range. I said a long-range maddog shot for an IR missile I guess would be over 8 miles. Assuming there is no excessive IR noise, and the target isn't offering its tailpipe for lunch.

 

Ah ok now I get it :)

 

I think you're talking LOBL when you state your ranges?

 

Yup I am.....and, as per my above reply, I dont believe that LOAL is even a possibility with the R-27TE.

 

As I understand it, the idea behind attaching an IR seeker to the long-burn version of the R-27 was simply, in connection with a rear aspect engagement, to take advantage of the increased seeker acquisition range obtainable with an IR head.......a situation where the opposite would be the case with radar guidance/homing for the R-27RE SARH version.

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Shepski]

Ok, then let's try to sum up this debate once and for all...

 

Is the ET "Uber" in Lock On?

 

Assuming a non manuevering or unaware target at launch... as is the case for a lot of TE kills in Lock On online.

 

1. We can use launch overide to shoot it in BVR or CAC modes... might not be the case IRL.

 

2. When using the sensor lock the missile will flyout towards the target when using launch overide and the missile can be launched for kills at ranges upwards of 25 km for a C-17... when not using it the seeker will acquire at a relatively short distance(7km head on for example unless it is in afterburner).

 

3. The missile will not acquire a target until it's about 7km head on once launched but if afterburner is on the missile will acquire and track at 13-14km.

 

4. The word "maddog" is being misused in this case... the only true maddog launch would be from a CAC mode with no lock using launch overide. In this case the missile does not get any information and will fly straight out until it sees something in it's FOV. This FOV is very small and the player must aim it or lead the target very precisely in order to get the missile to acquire the target when launched at ranges outside the normal "NP" range(7km).

 

So, the big deal here is can the real IR missiles be launched prior to "NP" using launch overide... if it can't IRL then it becomes quite Uber comparatively but in Lock On with this capability it is not Uber in the fact the player must employ it correctly to get results and those results are normally against unaware targets at longer ranges and aware targets at close ranges(within the seekers own lock on range).

 

Take away the overide capability and it becomes a big missile with little range.

 

All IMO of course but feel free to add and do some testing. :)

[GGTharos]

I think the 'uber' is only in comparison with other missiles, Shepski.

 

The initial guidance it gets from LA-override shouldn't be there either, so this greatly aids in 'sniping', making 'carefully placed shots' uneccessary tot he pilot himself, if you can see what I mean.

[Ironhand]

...3. The missile will not acquire a target until it's about 7km head on once launched...

 

Lost way back on the first page iof this thread were the stats I posted from the Uber-ET track. Missile #1 acquired a target with it's seeker at 15km. Missile #2 at 14km. Both targets were fighter sized aircraft--forgot which type. So about double what you're thinking for head on.

 

Rich

[Shepski]

I think the 'uber' is only in comparison with other missiles, Shepski.

 

The initial guidance it gets from LA-override shouldn't be there either, so this greatly aids in 'sniping', making 'carefully placed shots' uneccessary tot he pilot himself, if you can see what I mean.

 

Gallad posted this:

 

"A russian specialist said :

(r-27) In the case of the IR homing versions the target is initially acquired by the fighter radar, wherupon target information is download to the missile's seeker head;"

 

In my book, "Su-27: Flanker Story" by Andrei Fomin it states that "the missile control system includes the inertial navigation system with gyro monitoring and the homing device". This is for the R/ER and T/ET

[Shepski]

Lost way back on the first page iof this thread were the stats I posted from the Uber-ET track. Missile #1 acquired a target with it's seeker at 15km. Missile #2 at 14km. Both targets were fighter sized aircraft--forgot which type. So about double what you're thinking for head on.

 

Hi Rich,

 

I tested this by when the missile started to maneuver after flying in a straight line and it coincides with the range at which you get the "NP" cue under normal circumstances. I'll look at the track.

[GGTharos]

But Shepski, you need that just to keep the missile upright ...

[Shepski]

But Shepski, you need that just to keep the missile upright ...

 

Of course but wouldn't that system be used for target information as well? It would be just a matter of sending the range/bearing/altitude information from the aircraft sensor to the INS system prior to firing.

[Shepski]

Rich,

 

He's using a jamming target and I wonder if that makes a difference... will investigate... no difference in my test... TE flys straight then starts to maneuver at about 7km from target.

 

I wish guys who submit tracks for testing purposes, especially missile performance, would turn labels on.

[Alfa]

Jens... by "lock" do mean have the "NP" cue appear or just a sensor lock and can you use launch overide for an IR shot(IRL)?

 

Well a lock is a lock Mark :) . As you know you can have a lock on target without being able to fire the weapon(no "launch cue"), because the target motion has to fall within missile engagement parameters before you will recieve the launch authorisation.

 

However, as I understand it, in the MiG-29 the only sensor lock that can lead to a launch cue for an IR missile, is the missile's own sensor.....i.e. the seeker.

 

In Lock On head on "NP" comes at about 6-7km and when launched outside that range the missile doesn't start tracking until about 7km.

 

Well the lock ranges seem ok(a little short even - but then that is also highly dependable of the type of target and its motion), but I am just doubtful that the real thing can be launched without LA.

 

The initial launch vector of the missile off the rail is at the target or where the target will be so there is information sent to the seeker prior to launch on a locked target and prior to the "NP" cue if launched in overide mode.

 

Yes but the R-27TE has no midcourse guidance, so if "maddog'ed" there is nothing to tell the seeker where to look for the target after launch.....so if the seeker cannot find the target prior to launch, it would be a case of the seeker looking in a particular direction after launch and unless the target just happens to pass through its FOV, it will not see it.

 

The radar guided version is different in the way that if "launch ovrrided" the missile may not have the the kinetic energy to chase down the target, but the aircraft radar can still guide the missile towards target via datalink and thereby point the missile seeker in direction of target by the time it(the seeker) comes within acquisition range.

 

A true maddog launch would be from a CAC mode and using launch overide and in this case the missile must be aimed by the longitudinal axis of the jet to meet the target quite precisely prior to launch when outside "NP" range for it to acquire the target.

 

Yes that would be a requirement, but as mentioned earlier, I just dont think the the firecontrol system is configured for something like that......I could be wrong though :)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[GGTharos]

Of course but wouldn't that system be used for target information as well? It would be just a matter of sending the range/bearing/altitude information from the aircraft sensor to the INS system prior to firing.

 

And the aircraft's vector, if available, or just an intercept point ... the question is, is it mechanized to use it at all?

 

JJ's statement suggests that no, it isn't at all; basically all guidance comes down from the seeker (ie. it is terminal only). But this is a guess on my part.

[Shepski]

Well a lock is a lock Mark :) . As you know you can have a lock on target without being able to fire the weapon(no "launch cue")

 

However, as I understand it, in the MiG-29 the only sensor lock that can lead to a launch cue for an IR missile, is the missile's own sensor.....i.e. the seeker.

 

Yes but the R-27TE has no midcourse guidance, so if "maddog'ed" there is nothing to tell the seeker where to look for the target after launch.....

 

I was meaning by lock did you mean a seeker lock. :)

 

I didn't mean the TE has midcourse guidance but initial flyout guidance to get it pointed at the right piece of sky according to the target flight path at the moment of launch. In a maddog launch there is no flyout guidance so the player has to aim the jet at the right piece of sky himself.

[Alfa]

Of course but wouldn't that system be used for target information as well? It would be just a matter of sending the range/bearing/altitude information from the aircraft sensor to the INS system prior to firing.

 

Aha! .....now we are moving dangerously close to the old debate about datalink for the R-27TE ;) .

 

Because if the onboard nav system of the R-27TE could be "primed" with a target fix from radar prior to launch......then it would be quite stupid not to include a radio reciever in the missile to allow it to recieve command update to this(initial target fix) after launch :) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Shepski]

In Lock On we don't see datalink but we do see flyout guidance with a sensor lock. Be interesting to see what members of Eagle have to say about this discussion. :)

[GGTharos]

Personally I think it's a seeker issue ... ie.

 

1) Seeker probability for LOAL acquisition not so great

2) Seeker probably doesn't accept signals -from- the guidance unit, unlike radar seeker (ie. turn on now)

3) Seeker is in terminal mode ONLY which inhibits all data link related things, which I think is the -big- thing that 'gets in the way' of everything here. This is the same for the radar seeker ... when goes terminal, it inhibits the datalink. Since a dogfighting seeker (what the TE uses) is 'always terminal homing' ... zero point for including any datalink feature since it's always inhibited. Ie. the seeker is -always- sending steering signals tot he guidance unit.

 

Now, remember how I said something about 'weak signal seeker walk-off'? :D

 

THAT combined with the above is why you do NOT want to launch without a lock.

 

Just a big educated guess...

[Pilotasso]

That doesnt matter much, either it has and ED implements, it still doesnt cure the maddog issue. With link you are forced to keep lock wich isnt good because you become expose and betray your intentions.

[Galaad]

A very good link :http://www.saunalahti.fi/fta/ruaf-3-8.htm

 

"The R-27 Izdieliye 470 entered production phase in 1986 and is now Russia's primary intermediate-range missile in air-to-air missile category. The first service versions of the missile were semi-active radar homing missile R-27R (Alamo-B) and infrared missile R-27T (Alamo-A). Both versions use inertial guidance with data link commands from the launching aircraft in the first phase of the flight."

[GGTharos]

Except the T/TE versions do -not- in fact use datalinks ... I think JJ provided pretty conclusive proof.

[Alfa]

I was meaning by lock did you mean a seeker lock. :)

 

I didn't mean the TE has midcourse guidance but initial flyout guidance to get it pointed at the right piece of sky according to the target flight path at the moment of launch. In a maddog launch there is no flyout guidance so the player has to aim the jet at the right piece of sky himself.

 

Hehe...see my last reply :)

 

Thats just the thing Mark - if the TE had the ability to recieve an initial target fix to its nav system from a radar lock prior to launch, it would be very weird not to include a simple onboard radio reciever too....because then that would be the only thing missing in order to provide it with datalinking capability :) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Shepski]

That doesnt matter much, either it has and ED implements, it still doesnt cure the maddog issue. With link you are forced to keep lock wich isnt good because you become expose and betray your intentions.

 

There is only one maddog issue and that's if the missile can be fired prior to seeker lock. Other then that a maddog launch has very low probability of hitting anything at long range unless the player lines the jet up perfectly and the target doesn't maneuver.

 

Initail flyout guidance with a sensor lock is what you are refering to and it's fire and forget.

[Alfa]

In Lock On we don't see datalink but we do see flyout guidance with a sensor lock. Be interesting to see what members of Eagle have to say about this discussion. :)

 

Ah but there might be a perfectly logical explanation to this Mark ;) - remember that the R-27TE was initially modelled with datalink.....so it might be a case of having removed the datalink itself, but retaining its INS from earlier.

 

Just a theory :)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Shepski]

Hehe...see my last reply :)

 

Thats just the thing Mark - if the TE had the ability to recieve an initial target fix to its nav system from a radar lock prior to launch, it would be very weird not to include a simple onboard radio reciever too....because then that would be the only thing missing in order to provide it with datalinking capability :) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

 

Hehe... see GG's post... it sounds plausible to me :)

 

Isn't this fun!

[Ironhand]

Hi Rich,

 

I tested this by when the missile started to maneuver after flying in a straight line...

Myself as well or, actually, when the missile went from 1.0G to something else, an indication that it was starting to maneuver. But we're talking about the same thing.

 

He's using a jamming target and I wonder if that makes a difference... will investigate... no difference in my test... TE flys straight then starts to maneuver at about 7km from target...

Are you saying that you're viewing of the track yielded results different form mine? I'll have to recheck tonight. I only had a few minutes to run the track before I needed to be out the door. But I don't think I misread the distance twice.

 

Rich

[Shepski]

Ah but there might be a perfectly logical explanation to this Mark ;) - remember that the R-27TE was initially modelled with datalink.....so it might be a case of having removed the datalink itself, but retaining its INS from earlier.

 

Just a theory :)

 

Hmmmm... interesting. :)

[Shepski]

Myself as well or, actually, when the missile went from 1.0G to something else, an indication that it was starting to maneuver. But we're talking about the same thing.

 

 

Are you saying that you're viewing of the track yielded results different form mine? I'll have to recheck tonight. I only had a few minutes to run the track before I needed to be out the door. But I don't think I misread the distance twice.

 

I used my own test vs a Mig-29A head on at 6000m.

 

In his trk there are no labels or even enemy units on the F10 view to get distance information. How did you get the distance?